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Old 01-21-2012, 11:20 PM
 
3,486 posts, read 1,335,364 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsoncole View Post
You think you're smart - why aren't you wise?

If, by this, you mean no change, then all of your efforts amount to striking at the wind.

That is definitely not a wise course of action.


(\__/)
( Ď .Ď )
>(^)<

Wilson
What are you suggesting? That creationists will rise up and take the world by Bible bomb? Good luck with that.

 
Old 01-22-2012, 01:44 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
7,884 posts, read 4,768,394 times
Reputation: 1527
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsoncole View Post
Mr. Rafius,
Are you an apostate?

No mate...I'm a life long atheist that has done a bit of searching into the underhand tactics of the JW organisation. Messy.....very messy!!
 
Old 01-22-2012, 09:45 AM
 
7,468 posts, read 7,163,977 times
Reputation: 2844
This thread has severely veered off course with numerous off topic posts. Please bear in mind the TOS along with the Sticky at the top of the forum. Please address the OP rather than sarcastically addressing one another, or doing so with rudeness.

Next post that does not adhere to the above will result in this thread being closed. Sorry folks.
 
Old 01-22-2012, 09:06 PM
 
646 posts, read 297,951 times
Reputation: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by orogenicman View Post
What are you suggesting? That creationists will rise up and take the world by Bible bomb? Good luck with that.
No! Not even a hint of violence from our end. Nothing personal here, either.
As you suggested, nothing bad will happen to those who refuse to accept evolution, aside from remaining "ignorant and stupid."

On the other hand, following the course outlined by evolution can lead to humanity's end and earthís destruction.

"Survival of the fittest" - eh? Isnít that what you call it?
That's part of the theory of evolution as outlined by Darwin; is it not?
According to your mindset, the theory of evolution does not deal with life courses that can handle the upliftment of society.

The theory has no value in making men wiser nor teaching them how to avoid building dangerous weapons systems, polluting the environment, avoiding human conflict or outright warfare.

Those who refuse to accept the theory are branded as "fundies," "creationists," "ignorant," "stupid," "brainwashed," "uneducated," "mindless," etc, etc; all without protest. Yet - we stand tall - unashamed of belief in our Creator.

Where's the name-calling from the other side? Who has repeatedly demanded "proof of creationism?" And what about the unwarranted attacks on JWs?
How does all of this prove the ďtruthĒ of evolution?

Iíve read the claims, seen the drawings - yet, Iíve seen no proof because you just donít do proof!

"According to Bowler, Gee believes that:"...all the old paraphernalia of evolutionary explanations must be dismissed as unscientific speculation. All we can do is assess degrees of relationship. We cannot identify ancestors or "missing links," and we cannot devise testable theories to explain how particular episodes of evolution came about."" http://www2.asa3.org/archive/evolution/200003/0019.html

LIFE ONLY COMES FROM LIFE!
You cannot prove otherwise.
With that in mind, the theory of evolution is not a fact because it CANNOT be proved and is, therefore, unscientific and pointless. It can never make this world a better place.

You've got to come up with much better arguments to make your points.
Name-calling is childish and won't furnish any evidence.


(\__/)
( Ď .Ď )
>(^)<

Wilson
 
Old 01-23-2012, 01:37 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,621 posts, read 7,012,771 times
Reputation: 3631
Default Gee, poser-poser, you were wrong again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsoncole View Post
No! Not even a hint of violence from our end. Nothing personal here, either.
As you suggested, nothing bad will happen to those who refuse to accept evolution, aside from remaining "ignorant and stupid."

On the other hand, following the course outlined by evolution can lead to humanity's end and earth’s destruction.

"Survival of the fittest" - eh? Isn’t that what you call it?
That's part of the theory of evolution as outlined by Darwin; is it not?
According to your mindset, the theory of evolution does not deal with life courses that can handle the upliftment of society.

The theory has no value in making men wiser nor teaching them how to avoid building dangerous weapons systems, polluting the environment, avoiding human conflict or outright warfare.

Those who refuse to accept the theory are branded as "fundies," "creationists," "ignorant," "stupid," "brainwashed," "uneducated," "mindless," etc, etc; all without protest. Yet - we stand tall - unashamed of belief in our Creator.

Where's the name-calling from the other side? Who has repeatedly demanded "proof of creationism?" And what about the unwarranted attacks on JWs?
How does all of this prove the “truth” of evolution?

I’ve read the claims, seen the drawings - yet, I’ve seen no proof because you just don’t do proof!

"According to Bowler, Gee believes that:"...all the old paraphernalia of evolutionary explanations must be dismissed as unscientific speculation. All we can do is assess degrees of relationship.

LIFE ONLY COMES FROM LIFE!
You cannot prove otherwise.
With that in mind, the theory of evolution is not a fact because it CANNOT be proved and is, therefore, unscientific and pointless. It can never make this world a better place.
1) Evolution does not involve or create any social decisions, only the changes in genotype that natural mutations and the mechanisms of genetic transfer produce. It's you who blithely assigns ethics and outcomes to that well-documented process.

Fact is, humans are but one of perhaps 50 - 100 million different species on this planet, and all but one of those species do not concern itself with their social direction or future consequences. E. coli. as a social force to be reckoned with? Rats as the genesis of proper moral conduct? Mushrooms deciding which fork to use for the salad?

So your personal and blindered hate-driven perspective that a biological process called Evolution is per se socially responsible for widespread moral decay is a blind alley argument.

2) We make use of our evolving intellect in whatever means we have chosen. Many men are greedy, and have usurped their power and postion to subjugate others. This is hardly the fault of a genetic process, any more than having a sense of humor is responsible for anti-Semitic or anti-Black jokes. Q: Would you ban humor to eliminate such bad-taste jokes? Yes, you probably would.

3) We have clarified Gees' intent for you several times, and yet, as if to prove your inability to use your God-given intellect or common sense, or to prove you haven't anything actually truthful to contribute, you purposefully and repeatedly misuse his comments to make a point that he never did.

Gee fully believes in the facts of Evolution, by his own direct statements. He's just not personally "sold" on the Missing Link aspect that has, in fact, lost favor amongst all modern biologists. Not because specific transitional examples don't exist, but because we either can't easily find them to prove an exact lineage. Evolution is not responsible for laying out all our ancestors, with a time & date stamp on a toe tag!

Of course, by your commentary, Gee's ideas are obviously well well over your head, so you bumble along, misquoting as you go. Impressive.

Quotes from Gee: "This work illustrates that the path of evolution does not always run as smoothly as we like to think. No sooner had birds become airborne (as with Archaeopteryx) but some contrived ways to shed the habit of flight. Shuvuuia, Mononykus and its relatives represent a successful radiation of flightless birds that evolved before birds had achieved what many consider to be their modern form. That they look like dinosaurs is not entirely a coincidence, for they form part of the increasing body of evidence to show that birds and dinosaurs are close relatives."

Ahh?? Evolution in action, but only as Gee sees it, provided with a comment about the obvious evolutionary relationship between birds and dinosaurs.

3) Current medical research (too bad for your easy dismissals), has provided the first documented incidence of simple chemicals producing amino acids, and then TNA (a precursor to RNA and possibly the true origination of functional recording molecules...)

4) Meantime, Christianity, in it's presumptive and grandiose roll of improving the lives of earth's citizens, has failed in this goal, and miserably so. It's also promoted the ongoing mistreatment of women, "lesser" animals and all the earth's natural resources. All documented.

5) Evolutionary science has, in fact showed us the details of DNA, RNA and many other reactions and mechanisms critical to modern medical procedures & pathways of medical mutation and antibody resistance. It has shown us the direction for most of the latest amazing biological drugs, and has clearly elucidated the means by which our bodies and minds have and will continue to adapt to ecological changes.

Medical engineering, as developed by research into genetics and evolution, will be THE future of most treatments of the immediate and longer-term future, eradicating most diseases we now suffer under.

By comparison, the church would have us all "praying" for better health, and perhaps self-flagellating as a means of curing disease see: The Black Plague...)

Image Detail for - http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/jan2009/ashura01.jpg

Image Detail for - http://frogstorm.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Praying-for-the-plague-victims.jpg

Image Detail for - http://www.scari.org/images/flagellum.jpg

Image Detail for - http://www.nypost.com/rw/nypost/2010/01/27/news/photos_stories/cropped/john_paul--300x300.jpg

6) The misuse of scientific knowledge is hardly the fault of the nuclear mechanism. Are fission & fusion reactions, those which produce endless power for human safety and consumption (lights, heat, space exploration, and so on) the FAULT of molecular interactions? Hiroshima & Nagasaki are hardly the responsibility of the bomb's plutonium core, right?

What of DNA's ability to reliably record and replicate itself? "Selective eugenics" (from Hitler and others...) as a social management plan is solely the result of human hubris and greed, a common foible of the church, btw.

DNA is thus not responsible for human failings or stubbornness, though in some folks' cases, it may prove to be inherited... Case in point.... your posts....

These concepts as being the fault of Evolution are all just plain cretinous.

And only in your hate-filled mind.
 
Old 01-23-2012, 04:55 AM
 
Location: South Wales, Yes, I'm, back!
16,064 posts, read 8,116,671 times
Reputation: 2675
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsoncole View Post
No! Not even a hint of violence from our end. Nothing personal here, either.
As you suggested, nothing bad will happen to those who refuse to accept evolution, aside from remaining "ignorant and stupid."

On the other hand, following the course outlined by evolution can lead to humanity's end and earth’s destruction.

"Survival of the fittest" - eh? Isn’t that what you call it?
That's part of the theory of evolution as outlined by Darwin; is it not?
According to your mindset, the theory of evolution does not deal with life courses that can handle the upliftment of society.

The theory has no value in making men wiser nor teaching them how to avoid building dangerous weapons systems, polluting the environment, avoiding human conflict or outright warfare.

Those who refuse to accept the theory are branded as "fundies," "creationists," "ignorant," "stupid," "brainwashed," "uneducated," "mindless," etc, etc; all without protest. Yet - we stand tall - unashamed of belief in our Creator.

Where's the name-calling from the other side? Who has repeatedly demanded "proof of creationism?" And what about the unwarranted attacks on JWs?
How does all of this prove the “truth” of evolution?

I’ve read the claims, seen the drawings - yet, I’ve seen no proof because you just don’t do proof!

"According to Bowler, Gee believes that:"...all the old paraphernalia of evolutionary explanations must be dismissed as unscientific speculation. All we can do is assess degrees of relationship. We cannot identify ancestors or "missing links," and we cannot devise testable theories to explain how particular episodes of evolution came about."" http://www2.asa3.org/archive/evolution/200003/0019.html

LIFE ONLY COMES FROM LIFE!
You cannot prove otherwise.
With that in mind, the theory of evolution is not a fact because it CANNOT be proved and is, therefore, unscientific and pointless. It can never make this world a better place.

You've got to come up with much better arguments to make your points.
Name-calling is childish and won't furnish any evidence.


(\__/)
( ‘ .‘ )
>(^)<

Wilson
Heavens almighty. You remind me so much of C34. No matter how much we pointed out that Gee and the others were arguing about the theories of how something came about that did come about, he still repeated the quote as though it somehow invalidated all the evidence for evolution.

And those who refuse to take the evidence as valid are truly doing it through denial, ignorance (your attempt to play the Darwinism = Eugenics and the irrelevant 'what use is is?' card shows that) and a firm faith in Creationism, just as you say, and indeed, you stand up proudly clad in the clobber of ignorance, denial and mindless Faith and are PROUD of it.

This isn't sarcasm, (he protested ) but it is truly how you are looking to anyone other than a closed -minded Creationist.

We don't deny that there are a lot of questions, but the evidence all strongly indicates evolution as the process through which life developed and creationism has nothing going for it.

If you preferred to believe that Goddunnit, I could have more respect for your views if you didn't make your case through misrepresentation and asking for stupid things like moths turning into melons in the laboratory.

The only reason I even respond is that giving up in disgust always risks the denier being able to claim 'In the end, they couldn't refute my arguments.'

Speaking of deniers, I kept my promise to post on Paul. And kudos to rifleman for persisting explaining the theory of relativity to his pet cat.

Last edited by AREQUIPA; 01-23-2012 at 06:05 AM..
 
Old 01-23-2012, 05:16 AM
 
3,486 posts, read 1,335,364 times
Reputation: 2907
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsoncole View Post
No! Not even a hint of violence from our end. Nothing personal here, either.
As you suggested, nothing bad will happen to those who refuse to accept evolution, aside from remaining "ignorant and stupid."

So what you are saying is that remaining ignorant Moderator cut: deleted is a GOOD thing?


Quote:
On the other hand, following the course outlined by evolution can lead to humanity's end and earth’s destruction.

Humanity could well go extinct (and likely will) via our of it's own stupidity. Evolution is not needed for that to occur. On the other hand, we could simple evolve into something else. I refer you to Greg Bear's book "Darwin's Child" for reference to that idea.


Quote:
"Survival of the fittest" - eh? Isn’t that what you call it?

Have you ever seen me call it that? No? They why do you infer that that is what I call it? In fact, not even Darwin used that phrase.

Quote:
That's part of the theory of evolution as outlined by Darwin; is it not?

Nope. See above.


Quote:
The theory has no value in making men wiser

Of course it does.


Quote:
nor teaching them how to avoid building dangerous weapons systems, polluting the environment, avoiding human conflict or outright warfare.

How many evolutionary biologists are you aware of are building dangerous weapons?


Quote:
Those who refuse to accept the theory are branded as "fundies," "creationists," "ignorant," "stupid," "brainwashed," "uneducated," "mindless," etc, etc; all without protest. Yet - we stand tall - unashamed of belief in our Creator.

Yes, and the Catholic Church was for many many year quite proud of denying the facts Galileo demonstrated, despite the fact that everyone else on the planet had recognised the truth of his discoveries. Congratulations.

Oh, and speaking of evidence being right under the noses of the clergy:

A Dinosaur In The Church

The priest of Vigevano's Duomo must have been startled to realize that by far the most faithful presence at mass, ever since the altar was built, is not nonna Pina but a real dinosaur -a glaring testimony of the falsity of catholic-diffused pseudoscience and of the true origin of life on Earth. The red circle in the picture on the right shows the location of the marble slab in the altar.




It is only thanks to the good eye of a paleontologist who happened to walk by the altar, Andrea Tintori, that the piece of marble supporting the columns has risen to better fame. Its surface (see right) clearly shows a section of the skull of a dinosaur of as-of-yet unknown species, and yet apparently nobody had noticed it before.

A second section of the same skull is present in another slab of marble beyond the altar. The main section clearly shows the skull, nasal cavities, and several teeth. It is not yet clear what animal it belonged; future studies will probably allow to understand it.




The marble with which the altar is built comes from the Monte San Giorgio mine in Arzo, Switzerland, which is famous for the fossilized remains contained in its rock, a pinkish calcareous mineral containing iron oxides, which was formed 180 million years ago. Now paleontologists have received authorization and funding to study the material in more detail: the slabs will be replaced with others, and a three-dimensional reconstruction of the bone will be possible.

Last edited by june 7th; 01-23-2012 at 09:11 AM..
 
Old 01-23-2012, 10:38 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
7,884 posts, read 4,768,394 times
Reputation: 1527
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsoncole View Post
"Survival of the fittest" - eh? Isnít that what you call it?
Can I be bothered to explain it to him........


Nah! Pointless!
 
Old 01-23-2012, 11:00 AM
 
646 posts, read 297,951 times
Reputation: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Heavens almighty. You remind me so much of C34. No matter how much we pointed out that Gee and the others were arguing about the theories of how something came about that did come about, he still repeated the quote as though it somehow invalidated all the evidence for evolution.
Will you stop telling me what Henry Gee meant to say? If these are his words, I take them as they are written:
"But cladistics imposes rigid limits on how far one can trace such relationships. In particular it insists that one can never know if one form is directly ancestral to another---all we can do is work out degrees of relationship."
http://www2.asa3.org/archive/evolution/200003/0019.html
Is this true or false? Even if they are not his words, I take them as they are written. "...One can never know..."
Again:
"....there would be little reason to study fossils if we did not think that they provide an insight into how the past has given rise to the present. But Gee is surely right to warn us that such narratives are interpretations that go beyond the available facts, so that we can never be confident about their validity."
http://www.acampbell.org.uk/bookreviews/r/gee.html
Is this true or false?
Quote:
And those who refuse to take the evidence as valid are truly doing it through denial, ignorance (your attempt to play the Darwinism = Eugenics and the irrelevant 'what use is is?' card shows that) and a firm faith in Creationism, just as you say, and indeed, you stand up proudly clad in the clobber of ignorance, denial and mindless Faith and are PROUD of it.
I don't play any kind of cards. And your name-calling does not establish your credibility. In fact, it opens it up to question. Why the necessity?
Quote:
This isn't sarcasm, (he protested) but it is truly how you are looking to anyone other than a closed -minded Creationist.
I won't trade punches with you. Maybe that will help you to see your true self.
Quote:
We don't deny that there are a lot of questions, but the evidence all strongly indicates evolution as the process through which life developed and creationism has nothing going for it.
"Life developed." You said it, not me. Don't tell me that is another matter because you brought it up.
Life did not "develop." LIFE COMES ONLY FROM LIFE! That is scientific. You have no evidence that life was gradual in its origin.
You have a lot of questions, yet you insist on calling it a fact. Are you still questioning human flight? THAT is a fact! HOW things are done is quite another matter than whether or not they are done. You can only call it such when you have no more questions.
Quote:
If you preferred to believe that Goddunnit, I could have more respect for your views if you didn't make your case through misrepresentation and asking for stupid things like moths turning into melons in the laboratory.
You're punching again and I ignore it again. You've made no point.
Quote:
The only reason I even respond is that giving up in disgust always risks the denier being able to claim 'In the end, they couldn't refute my arguments.'
I'm going to say that anyway! "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." There really is no way you can disprove that. You can deny it, but you cannot disprove it. "In the end, they couldn't refute my arguments."

Who, really, is the denier?

(\__/)
( ‘ .‘ )
>(^)<

Wilson
 
Old 01-23-2012, 11:15 AM
 
3,486 posts, read 1,335,364 times
Reputation: 2907
"Goddunit" is not falsifiable. Wilson, you could exchange "Goddunit" with the flying spaghetti monster dunit", and your argument would be just as valid. And it would still explain nothing.
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