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I will agree that Iran and Saudi do find reasons tp execute apostates. However that is not in the Qur'an and not under any of the Recognized Madhabs of Sharia.
World wide and outside of Saudi and Iran Apostates are usually left alone.
The strange thing is both Saudi and Iran have it in their constitution that apostasy is legal.
As for most converts being woman who marry Muslims. That probably is true in some areas, but I doubt if that is true world wide.
A Christian, Jewish or Sabeean woman is not required to convert to marry a Muslim. Muslim men are permitted to Marry women of the book.
I don't believe it is strange at all!! Are you a Quran only Muslim?
Hadith Bukhari, volume 9, #17
"Narrated Abdullah: Allah's Messenger said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Messenger, cannot be shed except in three cases: in Qisas (equality in punishment) for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (Apostate) and leaves the Muslims." Bukhari, volume 9, #57
Narrated Ikrima, "Some atheists were brought to Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's messenger forbade it, saying, "Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire)." I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Messenger, "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him." Bukhari, volume 9, #58
Narrated Abu Burda, "Abu Musa said.....Behold there was a fettered man beside Abu Musa. Muadh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Musa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Musa requested Muadh to sit down but Muadh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and his messenger," and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers ..... Bukhari volume 4, #656:
Narrated Ibn Abbas:
Allah's Apostle said, "You will be resurrected (and assembled) bare-footed, naked and uncircumcised." The Prophet then recited the Divine Verse:-- "As We began the first creation, We shall repeat it: A promise We have undertaken. Truly we shall do it." (21.104)
He added, "The first to be dressed will be Abraham. Then some of my companions will take to the right and to the left. I will say: 'My companions! 'It will be said, 'They had been renegades since you left them.' I will then say what the Pious Slave Jesus, the son of Mary said: 'And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them; when You did take me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if you forgive them, You, only You are the All-Mighty the All-Wise.' "
(5.117-118) Narrated Quaggas, "Those were the apostates who renegade from Islam during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr who fought them".
Some believe this is about apostates:
004.088 Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way. 004.089 They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
I don't believe it is strange at all!! Are you a Quran only Muslim?
Hadith Bukhari, volume 9, #17
"Narrated Abdullah: Allah's Messenger said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Messenger, cannot be shed except in three cases: in Qisas (equality in punishment) for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (Apostate) and leaves the Muslims." Bukhari, volume 9, #57
Narrated Ikrima, "Some atheists were brought to Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's messenger forbade it, saying, "Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire)." I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Messenger, "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him." Bukhari, volume 9, #58
Narrated Abu Burda, "Abu Musa said.....Behold there was a fettered man beside Abu Musa. Muadh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Musa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Musa requested Muadh to sit down but Muadh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and his messenger," and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers ..... Bukhari volume 4, #656:
Narrated Ibn Abbas:
Allah's Apostle said, "You will be resurrected (and assembled) bare-footed, naked and uncircumcised." The Prophet then recited the Divine Verse:-- "As We began the first creation, We shall repeat it: A promise We have undertaken. Truly we shall do it." (21.104)
He added, "The first to be dressed will be Abraham. Then some of my companions will take to the right and to the left. I will say: 'My companions! 'It will be said, 'They had been renegades since you left them.' I will then say what the Pious Slave Jesus, the son of Mary said: 'And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them; when You did take me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if you forgive them, You, only You are the All-Mighty the All-Wise.' "
(5.117-118) Narrated Quaggas, "Those were the apostates who renegade from Islam during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr who fought them".
Some believe this is about apostates:
004.088 Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way. 004.089 They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
No I am not a Qurani.
I do read the adhadith. but I am aware of the rules of Authenticity and Reliability and do know in the 4 major compilations which are considered strong or weak. I also do not read them in English and read them in Arabic avoiding the translation errors.
I am also somewhat familiar with the Accepted 4 Madhabs of Islamic Jurisprudence. That are based upon the shariah interpretation of the Ahadith.
The first Hadith you mention has both high authenticity and reliability and is a strong hadith. However, in terms of who Muhammad was speaking to and in the context of what he was speaking of, this was in regards to the battle with the Quarish and the Jews who prented to convert to Islam but remained Jews and conducted war against the Muslims
The second ahadith as narrated by Ikrim has strong authenticity as it is verified Idrim was the actual Narrator. However it has low reliability as Ikrim is the only narrator of this and is third person hear say as he is reporting what he believes Ibn Abbas said and not anything he personally heard Muhammad say.
The Third Hadith is not reporting anything as a direct quoute from Muhammad it is reporting the actions of Abu Musa.
The 4th one has high levels of Authenticy and Reliability. It is a statement by Muhammad(PBUH) that after he dies there will be Muslims who apostate and it is up to Allaah to either Punish or forgive them/
The last one is technically not a Hadith as it was written after Muhammad had died and is a quote of Quaggas not the words of Muhammad(PBUH) It was quoted simply to show Muhammad's prediction came true. after his deat some did apostate.
I find it very strange that the 2 countries that have in their Constitution that Apostasy is legal and permitted are the two countries that the world sees as being most likely to execute apostates.
Are you sure you want to assert that there is not ONE IOTA of truth in it, KingCat? There is a lot of corrupt and misunderstood nonsense in it . . . but not ONE IOTA?
Mathmatically yes
because according to a mathematical proof/model' If we disprove a part of a theorem, then the whole is wrong. Now I admit we cannot apply quantitative mathmatical formulas to areas such as behavior and mythology, but let's apply the Religious all or nothing thinking to it...again, part is wrong so ALL is wrong OR it is all wrong because it has corrupt and misunderstood nonsense in it, making it mostly wrong so again therefore in the all or nothing area ALL WRONG
NOW taking it as allegorical myth, then Truth or wrong becomes a non-issue, and it becomes simply what the reader says it is to that reader.
The Christians have done a wise thing, they have traveled to suppressed parts of the world where religion is easier to grab a hold of, especially in desperate times which are more prevalent in the 3rd world areas. While Christianity is falling in mainstream America, it is growing in places like South America, Mexico, Africa and parts of Asia.
A comprehensive demographic study of more than 200 countries finds that there are 2.18 billion Christians of all ages around the world, representing nearly a third of the estimated 2010 global population of 6.9 billion. Christians are also geographically widespread – so far-flung, in fact, that no single continent or region can indisputably claim to be the center of global Christianity.
A century ago, this was not the case. In 1910, about two-thirds of the world’s Christians lived in Europe, where the bulk of Christians had been for a millennium, according to historical estimates by the Center for the Study of Global Christianity.2 Today, only about a quarter of all Christians live in Europe (26%). A plurality – more than a third – now are in the Americas (37%). About one in every four Christians lives in sub-Saharan Africa (24%), and about one-in-eight is found in Asia and the Pacific (13%).
The number of Christians around the world has nearly quadrupled in the last 100 years, from about 600 million in 1910 to more than 2 billion in 2010. But the world’s overall population also has risen rapidly, from an estimated 1.8 billion in 1910 to 6.9 billion in 2010. As a result, Christians make up about the same portion of the world’s population today (32%) as they did a century ago (35%).
This apparent stability, however, masks a momentous shift. Although Europe and the Americas still are home to a majority of the world’s Christians (63%), that share is much lower than it was in 1910 (93%). And the proportion of Europeans and Americans who are Christian has dropped from 95% in 1910 to 76% in 2010 in Europe as a whole, and from 96% to 86% in the Americas as a whole.
At the same time, Christianity has grown enormously in sub-Saharan Africa and the Asia-Pacific region, where there were relatively few Christians at the beginning of the 20th century. The share of the population that is Christian in sub-Saharan Africa climbed from 9% in 1910 to 63% in 2010, while in the Asia-Pacific region it rose from 3% to 7%. Christianity today – unlike a century ago – is truly a global faith. The Size and Distribution of the World
Calling it a global faith may be stretching the truth, it's more like missionaries have been hard at work trying to find people so worn down and uneducated they still fall for it. IMO, of course. Religion does the best in torn countries, poor countries, where people are desperate for a Godly being to intervene and make life better, which is understandable.
Religion is a great indicator of trouble that needs addressing. When people are in need of a Godly being it usually means they are in need of help which we humans are not addressing. We should fix that.
Last edited by PoppySead; 08-25-2014 at 06:29 AM..
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