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Old 01-01-2012, 08:02 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
Do you think mentioning it in worship is improper? Or using it to pray?
No. No.
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Old 01-01-2012, 08:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Greenspan View Post
No. No.
Do you use Yahweh when you pray?

Does my usage of Yahweh in forum posts (raising an awareness of His name, consequently) constitute an improper usage?

The famous song of Moses and the Children of Israel shows an interesting aspect of the usage of God's name. I'll use Fox's translation to help illuminate the Hebraic nature of the song, otherwise lost in most translations:
Then sang Moshe and the Children of Israel
this song to YHWH,
they uttered (this) utterance:

I will sing to YHWH,
for he has triumphed, yes, triumphed,
the horse and its charioteer he flung into the sea!

My fierce-might and strength is YAH,
he has become deliverance for me.

This is my God - I honor him,
the God of my father - I exalt him.

YHWH is a man of war,
YHWH is his name!....

Your right-hand, O YHWH,
majestic in power,
your right-hand, O YHWH,
shattered the enemy....

Who is like you among the gods, O YHWH!
who is like you, majestic among the holy-ones,
Feared-One of praises, Doer of Wonders!....

Let YHWH be king for the ages, eternity!
(Exodus 15:1-3, 6, 11, 18, SB)
A further exhortation of Miriam highlights the importance of Yahweh's name:
Now Miryam the prophetess, Aharon's sister, took a timbrel in her hand,
and all the women went out after her, with timbrels and with dancing,
Miryam chanted to them:
Sing to YHWH, for he has triumphed, yes, triumphed,
the horse and its charioteer
he flung into the sea!
(Exodus 15:20-21, SB)
Among the generation of Israelites who escaped Egypt, the name of YHWH was extremely important in worship - in the days of many gods, his name was an important distinction. When Moses approached the Pharoah, he did not cringe from pronouncing the name - no, he said "Thus says YHWH, the God of the Hebrews: Send free my people, that they may serve me!" This statement is repeated, like a refrain, over and over.

I'm not a fan of the current refusal to pronounce, or even write the name, among traditional believers - one should always acknowledge one's God, especially his name.

Have you read the recent article in the Journal of Near Eastern Studies concerning the name of a deity and it's usage as a weapon and possible separate identity? Some very interesting conclusions concerning the use of a god's name, and the separate identity it sometimes took on because of this. I think it's this background of magic and curses that was one reason for the prohibition of the pronouncing of the name.
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Old 01-01-2012, 11:51 AM
 
9,341 posts, read 29,672,241 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
Do you use Yahweh when you pray?
Not my custom to do so.


Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
Does my usage of Yahweh in forum posts (raising an awareness of His name, consequently) constitute an improper usage?
I do not think so.


Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
Have you read the recent article in the Journal of Near Eastern Studies concerning the name of a deity and it's usage as a weapon and possible separate identity?
No.
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Old 01-02-2012, 10:54 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Greenspan View Post
Not my custom to do so.




I do not think so.




No.
Thanks for the replies. Maybe someday you'll consider using it in your worship.

It's a shame that His name is not pronounced aymore (and that the pronounciation was essentially lost) by the majority of Jews. I often wonder what would happened if the practice had continued - would such a great rift have occurred between Christians and Jews? Would the name have served as a more solidifying factor than the Hellenistic practice of matching all gods to their local counterparts? (For example, in an ancient account of Syria, the author matches Ba'al to Zeus) Would it have been more difficult to divorce Judaism from Christianity?

General comments for Bible Basics:

YHWH
Since this is a Bible Basics thread, maybe a word should be said about YHWH or Yahweh for those who are only familiar with God or LORD in their Bibles.
  • the LORD - In modern translations of the Hebrew Bible (or the Christian Old Testament), almost all occurences of the personal name (PN) of the Israelite God (YHWH) occur as "the LORD" - usually smaller upper-case letters to let the reader know that the tetragrammaton is being replaced. This has caused no end of confusion with later Christian readers when making references to "the LORD" of the Old Testament and assuming the reference is to Jesus - who is typically called "the Lord". Any usages of "the LORD" in the Hebrew Bible are examples of what in the original Hebrew simply read "Yahweh".
  • Example from Genesis 4:26:
    • It was then that men began to invoke the LORD by name. (NJPS)
    • At that time they first called out the name of YHWH. (SB)
    • It was then that the name Yahweh was first invoked. (AB)
  • Yahweh - Gods had/have names. In a mass of beliefs concerning gods and goddesses, the believer must be able to differentiate between the gods. Egypt had Isis and Osiris, Sumer had Inanna and Enki, Babylon had Ishtar and Marduk, Ugarit had Athirat and 'El, Greece had Hera and Zeus, and Israel/Judah had Yahweh at one point. (You might have noticed a conspicuous absence in the last example after getting accustomed to the pattern I was making, but that's a topic for another time -or maybe later). The Pharoah in the account of the Exodus states "Who is Yahweh, that I should hearken to his voice to send Israel free? I do not know Yahweh...." (Exodus 5:2, SB with vocalization). He would soon know who Yahweh was in excrutiating detail. Yahweh was the personal name of the Israelite god and the Bible gives different example of when the name was used, and by whom. The reference from Genesis 4 points to an early usage of the name, but the Book of Exodus gives a contrary opinion on when the name was known and used. Moses has just encountered Yahweh for the first time in this following example, the Israelites are slaves in Egypt and have been worshipping either Egyptian gods or the Gods of the Patriarchs - the various 'Els (Gods). I will use the Schocken Bible for it's Hebraic character. [Note: a) words that are connected like-this-and-this are examples of what was originally one Hebrew word, but which we must use multiple words to convey in English. b) a slash / between a word gives the original Hebrew on the left and the English on the right to highlight the wordplay involved in the original that is lost in translation.]
  • Example from Exodus :
Moshe [Moses] said to God:
Here, I will come to the Children of Israel
and I will say to them:
The God of your fathers has sent me to you,
and they will say to me: What is his name? -
what shall I say to them?
God said to Moshe:
EHYEH ASHER EHYEH / I will be-there howsoever I will be-there.
And he said:
Thus shall you say to the Children of Israel:
EHYEH / I-WILL-BE-THERE sends me to you....

YHWH,
the God of your fathers,
the God of Avraham [Abraham], the God of Yitzhak [Isaac], and the God of Yaakov [Jacob],
sends me to you.
That is my name for the ages,
that is my title (from) generation to generation.
Go,
gather the elders of Israel
and say to them:
YHWH, the God of your fathers, has been seen by me,
the God of Avraham, of Yitzhak, and of Yaakov... (Exodus 13-16, SB)

So along with Genesis 4, we now have a concrete example of Yahweh and how he revealed himself and his name to Moses. He also tells Moses that he is "the God of your fathers". If you have a fairly decent Bible, or can read Hebrew, you may notice in the Patriarchal stories that Yahweh is not the only term used to designate the deity. Various forms of 'El are used in addition. Further in Exodus, shortly after the initial revelation and the first visit to the Pharoah, we have what scholars call a "doublet" in Exodus 6 - this is an example of the same story being told twice, sometimes with different details (compare the two Creation accounts in Genesis 1-3). In Exodus 6 we suddenly get a different explanation of Yahweh and his relationship to the "fathers".

God spoke to Moshe,
he said to him:
I am YHWH.
I was seen by Avraham, by Yitzhak, and by Yaakov
as God Shaddai ['El Shaddai],
but (by) my name YHWH I was not known to them.....
Therefore,
say to the Children of Israel:
I am YHWH;
I will bring you out
from beneath the burdens of Egypt,
I will rescue you
from servitude to them,
I will redeem you
with an outstretched arm, with great (acts of) judgement;
I will take you
for me as a people,
and I will be for you
as a God;
and you shall know
that I am YHWH your God, who brings you out
from beneath the burdens of Egypt.
I will bring you
into the land (over) which I lifted my hand (in an oath) to give to Avraham, to Yitzhak, and to Yaakov. (Exodus 6:29, SB)

So we have different accounts of what name the Israelites knew their god as, and when they knew this name. We also have a perfect example of a doublet and how this informs our understanding of the composite nature of the text. There are fascinating theories as to why the revelation of the name of God is so important for this, but that's for another time.
The main point is that the name Yahweh was known by the Israelites, used by them, invoked by them and was also known by non-Israelites at some point (according to the text). Nowhere in all of this is there some indication that the name is too holy to be pronounced or written - this would be a much later development in Judaism, which also brings us to the next point.

  • YHWH - where's the vowels? Well, in ancient Hebrew writing, like some other Semitic scripts, the vowels were unwritten. "Where's the vowels" might look like "whrs th vwls". Only later, much later, were vowel points added to the written script to aid in pronounciation and to help prevent the loss of knowing how to pronounce some of the rare words. So the letters y, h, w, h were used for the personal name of God. It is usually capitalized as YHWH in transliteration to show respect, much like we put a capital "G" before "God". At some point, following the Exile, the Jews were exposed to Persian ideas of the power of names: if you knew a deitie's name, you could summon it, apeal to it, curse it, etc. It was a magical thing (elements of this taboo on names can be found in Jacob's wrestling with God in Genesis, for example: the divine being refuses to reveal his name, but instead names Jacob into "Israel"). Eventually, the practice arose of not pronouncing "Yahweh" (our best scholarly guess as to the vocalization), but instead prounouncing the Hebrew for "my lord" - Adonai. Thus, in subsequent translations of the Hebrew Bible, various terms were used to translate YHWH and over time the knowledge of HOW to pronounce YHWH was lost. "Yahweh" is just an educated guess, but the most likely guess. "Jehovah" is just plain wrong, and it has to do with older investigators using the vowel points for "my lord" and using them as the vowels for YHWH (in addition, "J" is the German letter for how we would pronounce "y" - thus introducing that confusion; "Yehovah" would be a little more accurate than "Jehovah" and it's "j" English sound). The vowel pointing now in Hebrew Bibles uses the pointing for "my lord" to remind the reader that when reading aloud, they are to pronounce "Adonai" - rather than "Yahweh". Another contributory factor in all of this is the almost separate existence that The Name received, and is more fully discussed in the Journal article I mentioned in the previous post. Phrases such as "He shall cause His Name to dwell in [x]" are very interesting, and reveal a fascinating aspect of names - especially divine names.
  • Summary: The Israelites worshipped a god called Yahweh (YHWH) and eventually the practice emerged of substituting Adonai for the pronounciation of the name, until we have the almost unanimous substitution of "the LORD" in translations. There are various and sundry reasons and justifications for doing so, and most people are so accustomed to referring to God as the Lord (especially after the doctrine of the trinity began confusing the Son of God with God himself - the Lord is the Lord, for example), that it's doubtful whether the usage of Yahweh will ever gain a foothold again. Biblical scholars use the term, of course, and the better translations will contain a form of the name (whether in the vocalized Yahweh or merely consonantal YHWH), and a few Bibles have used forms of the Divine Name (older translations used Jehovah; a certain modern sect still uses Jehovah) - but it still remains true that the vast majority of active believers in the Judeo-Christian god are still entirely unaware that he actually has a name, and that he wished it to be used. The practice of not using the Name was so prevalent among believers that even the New Testament does not use the Name - not once. Any attempts to reinsert the name into the NT are false, since it must be realized that Jews and Christians alike in this period had stopped using the Name.
  • I - for one - think this is one of the most important Bible Basics, no matter how you approach it: secularly or devotionally.
By the way, this is how YHWH looks in Hebrew (reading left to right, for those not familiar with the order):


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Old 01-02-2012, 11:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
... (reading left to right, for those not familiar with the order) ...
Reading right to left, maybe?
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Old 01-02-2012, 12:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Greenspan View Post
Reading right to left, maybe?
Yes, sorry! Left to right, right to left- what's the difference lol?

Whatever I mistakenly typed, I wished to show that Hebrew is read and written in the exact opposite of English writing direction - or I never would have mentioned it. What's the saying? "Don't do what I say - do what I mean"....



Besides that oopsie, any thoughts on the name and it's usage?

The usage of the name is why you occasionally will see me refer to Mosaic Yahwism, in distinction from other stages of Israelite religion.
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Old 01-12-2012, 08:00 AM
 
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~ The first Prophet to pronounce redemption through Jesus
in The New Testament was not John The Baptist.

But a female Prophet, Anna. - Luke 2:26,38
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Old 01-12-2012, 08:14 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RevelationWriter View Post
~ The first Prophet to pronounce redemption through Jesus
in The New Testament was not John The Baptist.

But a female Prophet, Anna. - Luke 2:26,38

Well then, that would STILL make John the Baptizer the first prophet - for that's the term for a "male seer", and John was a male.
Anna would be a prophetess - the term for a "female seer", for she was a female.

So Bible Basics for the Day: the terms prophet and prophetess are two different things. And so are males and females.

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Old 01-12-2012, 08:38 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
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One of the problems I've always had with Christianity and Fundamentalist/Evangelical Christianity in particular, is the failure to read the Old Testament within its cultural context. The Old Testament books (their Tanakh) are of Jewish and earlier Israelite culture. It's bad enough that Christians often use Old Testament scripture out of its literary context, but when Christians use these books to form bases for their doctrine and dogma, it strips them of their Jewish and Israelite cultural context. This then destroys the original meaning of passages and what they were intended to convey.

Perhaps they should stick with just the New Testament and leave the Tanakh alone as anyone who actually takes the time to look at the Old Testament in light of its cultural context must conclude that many of the Christian doctrines and dogma must be false.
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Old 01-12-2012, 09:05 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
Well then, that would STILL make John the Baptizer the first prophet - for that's the term for a "male seer", and John was a male.
Anna would be a prophetess - the term for a "female seer", for she was a female.

So Bible Basics for the Day: the terms prophet and prophetess are two different things. And so are males and females.

In The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible which is 1,000 years eariler than any other known Biblical manuscript. Women were also called 'Prophets'.
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