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Old 01-20-2012, 03:14 AM
 
5,335 posts, read 1,977,114 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
I already acknowledged that your points (IMO) are valid. Yet - I like to deal with reality as it is NOW.
Not sure which one of my points was not applicable in the here and now. The point of the lion scenario was to point out that our penchant to think ourselves the superior species is predicated on nothing but measuring "superior" based on our best features. Getting annoyed at the scenario used to highlight that point will not help anything.

If you could "ask" other animals who is superior they would all likely say they are and list their strengths as the reason. The lion would tell us he is the best because he is faster and stronger. The Bird would tell us he is the best because he has more freedom, abilities and better eye sight. The shark would tell us he is the best because he is such a powerful swimmer. Viruses would tell us they are the best because they could wipe all the other animals out on a whim.

This is the arrogance we suffer from as a species and what leads you to think we are the "gods" of the animal kingdom, much as the bible tells us (falsely) that we have dominion over all life.

Instead I choose to view us as just another animal albeit with a different skill set to other animals. As such we are not "better" than any other.
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Old 01-20-2012, 05:49 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,345 posts, read 3,682,976 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Not sure which one of my points was not applicable in the here and now. The point of the lion scenario was to point out that our penchant to think ourselves the superior species is predicated on nothing but measuring "superior" based on our best features.
I am not talking about what anyone thinks. I am talking about the present condition of BILLIONS of animals being bred and caged and raised for slaughter or put through horrendous suffering for research by HUMANS. I don't give a rat's butt who thinks who is superior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Getting annoyed at the scenario used to highlight that point will not help anything.
It doesn't annoy me. It's just not relevant because it's a fictional scenario which is not impacting our species. How many humans are killed by Lion's ever year? very few. How many humans are bred by Lion's and raised for food? Zero.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
If you could "ask" other animals who is superior they would all likely say they are and list their strengths as the reason. The lion would tell us he is the best because he is faster and stronger. The Bird would tell us he is the best because he has more freedom, abilities and better eye sight. The shark would tell us he is the best because he is such a powerful swimmer. Viruses would tell us they are the best because they could wipe all the other animals out on a whim.
Again - I don't give a rat's butt about who thinks who is superior. It's the current condition I care about - the horrible abuse perpetrated upon animals who have no power whatsoever to stop it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
This is the arrogance we suffer from as a species and what leads you to think we are the "gods" of the animal kingdom, much as the bible tells us (falsely) that we have dominion over all life.
Arrogance is causing me to easily assess empirical facts about what species is willfully breeding, dominating, abusing and slaughtering other species of animals? Interesting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Instead I choose to view us as just another animal albeit with a different skill set to other animals. As such we are not "better" than any other.
Again, I get your point and have twice acknowledged the validity of your view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
Look, I get your point and when viewing from the larger ecosystem perspective we are dependent on all other life to exist (as well as on oxygen, gravity etc. etc).
There was a specific point I wanted you to clarify though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
BUT my point is that animals don't put us in cages or raise us by the billions for food.

As far as "behavior" I would hope you know it's wrong to murder human animals for food and assumed that since (in your view) we are all animals then you would be against breeding billions upon billions of conscious beings for captivity and painful (in many cases) slaughter.

Have I totally misunderstood you?
Well?
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Old 01-20-2012, 07:24 AM
 
5,335 posts, read 1,977,114 times
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A bit too many quotes there so forgive me if I reply in prose format to make it more readable. Not a slight on you but I find that when you over use the quote function less people actually read it. You will forgive me also if I do not lower myself to the kind of “Rats Butt” invective that you did too.

So really most of your post is just acknowledging and agreeing with my point of view and then asking me something about cannibalism. I am not sure what you are actually asking me there or what cannibalism has to do with anything. Are you somehow trying to equate not breeding humans for food with some kind of acknowledgement that this somehow means humans are “superior” by that same view?
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Old 01-20-2012, 10:05 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
7,884 posts, read 4,695,782 times
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What Do Think Of Animal Sacrifices For Religion?

There are quite a few dogs living near me that I would happily donate.
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Old 01-21-2012, 12:48 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,345 posts, read 3,682,976 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
A bit too many quotes there so forgive me if I reply in prose format to make it more readable. Not a slight on you but I find that when you over use the quote function less people actually read it. You will forgive me also if I do not lower myself to the kind of “Rats Butt” invective that you did too.

So really most of your post is just acknowledging and agreeing with my point of view and then asking me something about cannibalism. I am not sure what you are actually asking me there or what cannibalism has to do with anything. Are you somehow trying to equate not breeding humans for food with some kind of acknowledgement that this somehow means humans are “superior” by that same view?
Well, obviously we are on different pages. My only point is that we have the power to do bad things to animals but morally shouldn't. Yet all you got from it was something about cannibalism? And you won't address the question about eating your own kind (animals). So either you are just messing with me or are on such a different wavelength that you really don't understand what I'm saying/asking.

Either way, it's been nice chatting with you.
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Old 01-23-2012, 03:36 AM
 
5,335 posts, read 1,977,114 times
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I see so asking someone to clarify what they mean before replying to them is now some kind of crime is it? Sheesh, get over yourself. I merely want to know what it is you are asking for sure before I go answering it so that I can give you the best answer I am capable of. That is how discussion works.

As I said every species is likely to laud praise and protection on those traits that make them seem great to themselves. Consciousness and intellect are important to us because they are the traits that make us who and what we are. Any moral decision towards preventing cannibalism, captivity and torture of other conscious beings likely stems from there.

Further cannibalism is just a bad idea in terms of passing on disease and more. So yes I am still a little lost as to what the point is you are trying to make and will have to keep committing this new and awful crime of asking you to clarify it for me.
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Old 01-24-2012, 03:25 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,345 posts, read 3,682,976 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
I see so asking someone to clarify what they mean before replying to them is now some kind of crime is it? Sheesh, get over yourself. I merely want to know what it is you are asking for sure before I go answering it so that I can give you the best answer I am capable of. That is how discussion works.

As I said every species is likely to laud praise and protection on those traits that make them seem great to themselves. Consciousness and intellect are important to us because they are the traits that make us who and what we are. Any moral decision towards preventing cannibalism, captivity and torture of other conscious beings likely stems from there.

Further cannibalism is just a bad idea in terms of passing on disease and more. So yes I am still a little lost as to what the point is you are trying to make and will have to keep committing this new and awful crime of asking you to clarify it for me.
no crimes, just communication breakdown. I don't think that's a crime. Like I said - nice chatting!
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Old 01-25-2012, 02:21 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,345 posts, read 3,682,976 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
asking you to clarify it for me.
I was hoping that perhaps of your understanding of the connection between humans and other animals that you might have decided to abstain from contributing to the ongoing torment and slaughter of the others. Are you vegan? (sorry for not making the question more blunt - even though from my perspective it was plainly asked) here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post

As far as "behavior" I would hope you know it's wrong to murder human animals for food and assumed that since (in your view) we are all animals then you would be against breeding billions upon billions of conscious beings for captivity and painful (in many cases) slaughter.
Is my question any clearer to you now?
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Old 01-25-2012, 03:23 AM
 
5,335 posts, read 1,977,114 times
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Not sure what the point of ignoring my post, going away with a „nice chatting“ and then returning to reply again almost 24 hours later was, but however….

No my seeing us as another animal, just with a different set of attributes, in no way moves me to become vegan or vegetarian… nor am I sure why it would or should. There is a “circle” of life process there where some animals consume others and I realize I am part of that circle. So I am happy to continue to consume the animals that I do.

Similarly when I die I hope to be buried in such a way as to allow flora and fauna to dine upon me just as I dined upon flora and fauna in my life…. And idea that was expressed in the same words by the scientist Neil DeGrasse Tyson here.
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Old 01-28-2012, 10:54 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,345 posts, read 3,682,976 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Not sure what the point of ignoring my post, going away with a „nice chatting“ and then returning to reply again almost 24 hours later was, but however….
You seemed sincere so I reconsidered the chat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
No my seeing us as another animal, just with a different set of attributes, in no way moves me to become vegan or vegetarian… nor am I sure why it would or should. There is a “circle” of life process there where some animals consume others and I realize I am part of that circle. So I am happy to continue to consume the animals that I do.

Similarly when I die I hope to be buried in such a way as to allow flora and fauna to dine upon me just as I dined upon flora and fauna in my life….
Yeah - who cares what happens to your body when it is lifeless material? I'm talking about the billions upon billions of animals suffering in conditions like these.
Meet your meat - The transformation of animals into food - YouTube

I was hoping you'd be different but no - just as calloused as the average human animal. A bit depressing really.

Just as slavery was considered a societal norm and a necessity years ago. Until someone finally said "wait a minute" and appealed to awaken the conscience of humanity. That's our only hope in this regard too, else the world at large will remain a virtual slaughterhouse for human AND non-human animals.
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