Science not at odds with Religion; but with the church. (atheist, agnostic)

[Mickiel]

Originally Posted by GCSTroop

There is no doubt that science does have some of its roots in religion. .

Its no doubt that " All" of science had its roots in religion, not just some of it. Anywhere in history that you find science, I mean early history, you will find it " Inside of religion." It was conceived in religion. There may be some individual historical seeds back there which were independant of religion, but that was so rare, its insignificant. Science began as a religion; as a way to search for the divine.

And history cannot be changed.

[QuixoticHobbit]

Originally Posted by Mickiel

Its no doubt that " All" of science had its roots in religion, not just some of it. Anywhere in history that you find science, I mean early history, you will find it " Inside of religion." It was conceived in religion. There may be some individual historical seeds back there which were independant of religion, but that was so rare, its insignificant. Science began as a religion; as a way to search for the divine.

And history cannot be changed.

Yes, well all the mighty trees in forest came from a few nuts..

Science may have had some of its roots in religion but once its gears were well oiled and freely turning it quickly became a reaping machine, separating truth from religious chaff.

[Blackfeet]

I tend to think that religion is like a different kind of media. I think most are created by fiction writers that become enlightened to the fact that you can actually create spirits through the media of the written word. You have explosions around the world of spirits creating spirits(pantheons) that illustrates the whole idea. Personifying spiritual phenomenons and illustrating phylosophy through the use of spiritual totems. THe Gods of war, the gods of firtility, Gods associated with thunder, the spirits of the animals..etc..people actually experience these spirits. They are spiritual phenomenons. Everyone represents a spiritual phenomenon. You are the God of -----(fill in the blank). Now that we have the internet, we can all create ourselves in any way we want, and represent anything we choose. The internet makes us all creators of our own digital deity. By building your digital body online with a user name and an avatar, we create the deity. And that is at the very crux of all religions. Creating the deity, or the idea.

[Mickiel]

Originally Posted by QuixoticHobbit

Yes, well all the mighty trees in forest came from a few nuts..

Science may have had some of its roots in religion but once its gears were well oiled and freely turning it quickly became a reaping machine, separating truth from religious chaff.

Well science did become a powerful seperate entity from the church, but the church became one too.

But I like the analogy; all the mighty trees came from a few nuts!

[Mickiel]

Originally Posted by Blackfeet

I tend to think that religion is like a different kind of media. I think most are created by fiction writers that become enlightened to the fact that you can actually create spirits through the media of the written word. You have explosions around the world of spirits creating spirits(pantheons) that illustrates the whole idea. Personifying spiritual phenomenons and illustrating phylosophy through the use of spiritual totems. THe Gods of war, the gods of firtility, Gods associated with thunder, the spirits of the animals..etc..people actually experience these spirits. They are spiritual phenomenons. Everyone represents a spiritual phenomenon. You are the God of -----(fill in the blank). Now that we have the internet, we can all create ourselves in any way we want, and represent anything we choose. The internet makes us all creators of our own digital deity. By building your digital body online with a user name and an avatar, we create the deity. And that is at the very crux of all religions. Creating the deity, or the idea.

I understand; but I would say this; there are real deitys, and there are fakes. Humans have been creating deitys for a long time, way before the advent of the internet.

I personally believe God to be real, and on another website, I just finished a thread last month, the 100 proofs of God; I gave 100 reasons why I believe in that deity to be real. I don't think its wrong to believe in deitys; I would just hope the person proves their deity to themselves.

[Mickiel]

When science broke from the church, its revolution has put pressure on the church ever since. In fact, the changes in the Catholic Church since Vatican II can certainly be charged partly to the decay of religious collective cognitive imperatives under the pressures of rationalist science, provoking; as it does, revision after revision of meaning behind ritual. The Catholic church is slap full of rituals. Rituals are behavioral metaphors, belief acted, divination foretold, exopsychic thinking. Rituals are devices for the great narratizations at the heart of church life. Not just the Catholic church, but most churchs have their share of rituals; and science often bangs at the rationale of these rituals. Many of the rituals take their orgin from myths.

And this is what science is at odds with. Not religion; but the church.

[cmforte]

Originally Posted by Mickiel

We sometimes think, even like to think, that the two greatest exertions that have influenced mankind, religion and science, have always been historical enemies, intriquing us in oppisite directions. But this effort at special identity is loudly false! Its not religion but with the church and science that were hostile to each other. And it was rivalry, not contravention. Both were religious at first! they were two giants fuming at each other over the same ground.

Both proclaimed to be the only way to divine revelation.

It was a competition that first came into absolute focus with the late Renaissance, particually in the imprisionment of Galileo in 1633. They imprisioned him for superfical reasons, claiming his publications didnot get stamped with Papal approval. That was a trivial surface event, the real division was more profound.

It was a war between mankinds yearning for understanding and meaning; a war that still wages yet today. Many have forgotten that science came from the church, it used to be religious; but has branched off on its own.

But without the church, without this war, there would have been no " Scientific Revolution." At its root, science is not really at odds with Religion, ( or mans effort to understand God), its still at war with the Church.

It's not at war with The Church anymore, the Catholic Church anyways (from Adam, Eve, and Evolution | Catholic Answers ) :

The Catholic Position


What is the Catholic position concerning belief or unbelief in evolution? The question may never be finally settled, but there are definite parameters to what is acceptable Catholic belief.

Concerning cosmological evolution, the Church has infallibly defined that the universe was specially created out of nothing. Vatican I solemnly defined that everyone must "confess the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, as regards their whole substance, have been produced by God from nothing" (Canons on God the Creator of All Things, canon 5).

The Church does not have an official position on whether the stars, nebulae, and planets we see today were created at that time or whether they developed over time (for example, in the aftermath of the Big Bang that modern cosmologists discuss). However, the Church would maintain that, if the stars and planets did develop over time, this still ultimately must be attributed to God and his plan, for Scripture records: "By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and all their host [stars, nebulae, planets] by the breath of his mouth" (Ps. 33:6).
Concerning biological evolution, the Church does not have an official position on whether various life forms developed over the course of time. However, it says that, if they did develop, then they did so under the impetus and guidance of God, and their ultimate creation must be ascribed to him.

Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that "the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God" (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are.

While the Church permits belief in either special creation or developmental creation on certain questions, it in no circumstances permits belief in atheistic evolution.

Science and Religion


The Catholic Church has always taught that "no real disagreement can exist between the theologian and the scientist provided each keeps within his own limits. . . . If nevertheless there is a disagreement . . . it should be remembered that the sacred writers, or more truly ‘the Spirit of God who spoke through them, did not wish to teach men such truths (as the inner structure of visible objects) which do not help anyone to salvation’; and that, for this reason, rather than trying to provide a scientific exposition of nature, they sometimes describe and treat these matters either in a somewhat figurative language or as the common manner of speech those times required, and indeed still requires nowadays in everyday life, even amongst most learned people" (Leo XIII, Providentissimus Deus 18).

As the Catechism puts it, "Methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things the of the faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are" (CCC 159). The Catholic Church has no fear of science or scientific discovery.

[DentalFloss]

Originally Posted by Mickiel

Science has never been seperate from religion until this 20th century began prying at history.

If you said "spirituality" instead of religion, I might agree with at least some of your points. But you're attempting to intimate that science supports your specific religion. It does not.

Let us suppose, hypothetically, that some how, some way science were able to prove a supernatural creator, which for the record I believe exists. I can't imagine how it might, but for the sake of argument, let's assume it happened.

Which god would be proven? You would claim yours, and every other religion would make the same claim, and we'd be right where we are now.

Religion is nothing but man made nonsense.

[Asheville Native]

Originally Posted by DentalFloss

Religion is nothing but man made nonsense.

And those men thought the earth was flat, and the center of the universe, and were totally ignorant about just about everything from why the sun came and went, to why people stopped moving (died).

And people make these the "scientific experts" they base everything on

[Mickiel]

Originally Posted by DentalFloss

If you said "spirituality" instead of religion, I might agree with at least some of your points. But you're attempting to intimate that science supports your specific religion. It does not.
.

I am not a religious man, and I am not a member of any religion. In my view, science does not support any religion now, but it used to be part of religion, in that its original purpose was to search for the divine. I do not believe science is against a search for the divine, which is what religion is; I believe science is more in disagreement with church doctrines and beliefs and traditions.