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A very well articulated argument sir. However, re my "flavor" of Christianity, I submit that there is only one valid "flavor", that as taught to us in the scriptures throught the Words of our LORD Himself. All else is human manipulation for human agendas, not Christianity.
As far as whether "my" God is the right God? Well, to me He most certainly is, because He has made Himself known to me in very tangible ways. I would ask that you read a previous post of mine in the Christianity sub-forum entitiled "The Day God Spoke To Me". You will have a complete and clear perspective on my faith in the Christian God.
However, I do accept that from the perspective of one who has not fully experienced the reality of God, the numerous other gods spoken of in various cultures may be just as valid as my God. This comes from a lack of understanding in the way God demonstrates His reality through His revealed Word. Namely Biblical Prophecy. Fully one third of the Bible is prophetic, and one third of that is fulfilled prophecy, two thirds remains to be fulfilled. The portions that have been fulfilled have been so in remarkable accuracy. In the prophets God challanges these "other' gods to speak and declare the future as He does. None have done so, no Hindu god, no others. So that is the test, and only God has proclaimed the end from the beginning.
So yes, in my mind we are down to two choices, you either believe in God or you don't.
The point is that if you want to use Pascal's wager to try to convince someone, your opinions are not at issue.
Pascal's wager tries to make the case that even if I have no other reason to believe, I should choose to hedge my bets and believe in God, based on the severity of the outcome.
My point is that without some other reason to believe, all possible beliefs about god(s) are equally likely to me. In fact the non-existence of all gods seems the most likely option to me. Bearing this in mind, it is not rational to choose one particular interpretation based on Pascal's wager., since I could pick your interpretation of god and still be destined for hell.
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Originally Posted by TheHumbleWitness
NoCapo,
However, I do accept that from the perspective of one who has not fully experienced the reality of God, the numerous other gods spoken of in various cultures may be just as valid as my God.
This is the point. you are not trying to convince yourself, but me. Pascal's wager is ineffective for that purpose.
Pascal's wager is doubly ineffective on someone like me, because I have experieced the "reality of God". I was a believer for over 20 years. I placed my faith in Christ's sacrifice to save me, and sought after God with all my heart, soul, and strength. So either I am still saved, regardless of the fact that I don't believe in the existence of God anymore, or salvation is based on works not faith, or the best I had to give was not sufficient for God. If the best I had was insufficient, then why would a rational calculation based purely on self interest be acceptable to God? I was taught that he requires more than this.
Ah Skoro, yes the great Almighty should come before YOU and humble Himself to you that you may know Him.
Not at all. Put your red herring back in the can, please.
Like I said, if this god of yours is all-powerful and all-knowing, then there'd be no need for any personal appearances. If it's so all-fired important to him, I'm sure it'd be a snap to make everyone a believer.
The fact is that the vast majority of the world's population doesn't share your faith. There are billions of good people who have a different viewpoint.
That shouldn't bother you so much.
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The reality is my friend, that you must approach Him if you wish to know Him. I don't make the rules, He does. He asks for faith in return for the many rewards knowing Him brings. Only through faith will you ever be able to know Him. You are indeed important to Him, yet it is you who must seek Him in faith. If you don't it is you who has all to lose, you cannot menace God and you cannot expect Him to show you special favor. It is all up to you, no one can prove God to you, you must find Him for yourself.
Save your sermon for someone who needs it. I spent lots of time in church services, Bible study groups and summer Bible camp. It just didn't take.
It's OK with me if you have the faith, no need to witness or anything like that.
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God Bless.
Well, in the simplest of terms, I'm not middle eastern. Maybe you are. If so, then this middle eastern god should definitely have some meaning for you.
First point, as an atheist, there is nothing at all to ponder.
Because the ignorance of ancient superstitions holds no sway those capable of recognizing why man invented gods in the first place, simply put, to explain away the fears he lacked the knowledge to understand. It is after all natural to fear the unknowns, and there were many back then.
What if you are wrong, and you have spent a life time chasing a fantasy, and wasting untold time, effort, and money, quaking in fear that a god proven to be murderous and ruthless (you book) is going to place in a lake of fire for eternity, because he loves ya.
You have zero evidence to support your position, and that same absence of evidence speaks volumes to support mine.
OBTW, I have never lost a second of sleep worrying about your question, how much sleep have you lost worried you might doing something to displease your god?
On a logical note; do you actually think that your question (heard it thousands of times) is going to even cause one to even pause for a moment, much less change an atheists mind? Are you trying to insult our intelligence, or just assuming that atheists are just stupid?
Wrong about what? You fail as you assume or depart from the premise that you are right. That is something you need to prove first.
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There is mounting evidence of a spirit realm. NDEs provide a
clear window into the reality of an afterlife. Science confirms
that 95% of the universe lies beyond our perceptions, as well
as, beyond the detection of any instrumentality.
NDE's are not people returning from the dead. The brain was still active just deprived of oxygen. NO ONE has EVER returned from the dead. Death is final.
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The Bible says -snip-
You are being told yet you do not believe.
No you are interpreting a fairy tale book and pretending it is truth
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You speak of being
rational, you harden your hearts against God though His creation
is all around you. You attribute creation to randomness, mocking
God in the wake of your flawed arguments.
What arguments are flawed?
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What if you're wrong my friends?
You would not play Russian roulette -snip-
Pascal's wager (you) suggests if we pretend we can fool your omnimax god, that really does not say much for your god now does it? Is your god not supposed to know the minds of man?
Should we also believe in Santa Clause too? No? Why not?
You figured out it was something your parents pretended was real as a kid then you grew up. The hint is here.
You were indoctrinated into your belief. It is not real except in your own mind. IOW all you believe is true and real, your mind has fabricated it to be so just like your mind blindly accepted Santa as a kid.
The day you die, your god dies with you as it only exists in your consciousness IOW your mind IOW your brain. But if this imaginary deity gives you peace right now, you are welcome to it, some of us just outgrew imaginary friends.
Your post reminds me of something I would of posted 2 years ago, trying so hard to convert the "atheists" thinking they have it all wrong and you have it all so right. I never actually understood how someone could NOT believe in God because I had always had the belief since birth and not believing just wasn't an option.
Now as an agnostic (some would now call me an atheist) I totally get it and a post like yours is really kind of laughable now, although I know you're very sincere. I presented a similar thread at one point and the responses were harsh and biting but in time I began to see the error of my ways, which was thinking I had the only answers. It's not only annoying, it's extremely narcissistic and it does no good as far as bringing atheists "into the fold". Now I can see just how ineffective it really is.
Maybe it works on some people in the right situation if you can manage to drag them to your church and get them in that environment where they're surrounded by chanting and praying and a pastor who is inviting them to "come to the front" and be "saved" but I guarantee you if they are a true atheist even that is not going to work.
I see you're a new poster so I'll give you some advice; stop wasting your time and energy here at C-D proselytizing, it has no effect. I know this from my own experience with it. If you stay here long enough you might just find yourself losing faith and starting to question all that you've been taught and that you believe to be true. Just a word of caution.
I still can't say beyond a shadow of a doubt that there isn't a "god", and you can't say beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is. So who's right and who's wrong? You have no evidence and your little "story" in that other thread in the Christianity sub-forum didn't prove a thing except that you saw what you wanted to see. And I recall you getting pretty huffy when challenged. That's because you know you can't prove a thing, so why waste your time and energy proselytizing to people who you know are not going to change their minds and who might give you a serious run for your money and upset you?
If you're truly a sincere Christian then your time would be better spent helping the needy or your church. Keep it to yourself and only witness to those who come to you seeking. Otherwise, it's all just a colossal waste of time for you. Sharing is one thing, but trying to convert over the internet is pointless and makes one look kinda silly. Just saying......
Why do theists keep proposing Pascal's wager like they just invented it? Our answers are still the same no matter how you rephrase it. It is a useless idea for many reasons and can only convince those who are already indoctrinated.
It assumes, of course, that the only choices are nothing or the Christian diety. What about all those other dieties? What if YOU are wrong and we were all supposed to be worshipping Ra all this time? It assumes that you know what the god you imagine wants - maybe there really is a diety out there, but it values open-eyed rational thought over blind faith. It planted Christianity on earth just to test us, to see how many of us would fall for such an obvious farce if it was attached to a threat of eternal damnation even when evidence to the contrary was staring us right in the face. Everyone who swallows it whole can go right to that same hell they are always trying to condemn others to, and burn for eternity with all the other believers. Better stop believing just to be safe, right?
Maybe there is a diety out there and it cares no more for us than we care for the bacteria colonizing the soles of our shoes. In that case, worship is a total waste of time and energy just as surely as it would be if there were no dieties at all. Or maybe there really is a diety like the one described in Christianity and it really does want me to worship it. Do you think I could possibly fool such a being by pretending to believe what I do not? Do you think it would value deception over truth? The entire premise is ridiculous if you actually bother to think about it.
At any rate, whether there really are any dieties out there or not doesn't matter to my life. I'm a good person, and if that's not enough for them, then they were never worthy of worship in the first place.
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