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Old 09-03-2007, 02:43 PM
 
Location: southern california
53,977 posts, read 70,781,984 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasNick View Post
I've been reading the bible (New Testament) and am amazed at the sheer number of people who reportedly witnessed the various miracles that Jesus did.

But, my question is this: Do we have any other written documents (aside from the Bible) from people who may have witnessed these miracles? Surely, if it was such an important and supernatural event, people would have at least mentioned it in some journals, diaries or whatever. I would imagine, that if they did, most probably did not survive over the years. How many of us have notes and papers left over from our ancestors that lived in the 1700s? Surely, some of our great ancestors saw George Washington, but did they write this down? Only the great documents were saved..the US Constitution, papers written by politicans, etc...and even those documents are vastly dwarfed by the number of documents written about Jesus.

So, I'm curious. What else do we have besides the Bible that shows Jesus working his miracles?
yes i agree. but as a believer i look to the words and thoughts of jesus and his followers rather than documentation. theirs are very strong words and considering the harsh hostile and brutal part of the world this occured in, which has not changed much, what an unusual doctrine and man. the list is long of stuff that does not gel. for instance romans were great administrators and kept very good financial and legal records. we got a huge gap 12 years old to 30 a total blank in the history of jesus. tons of witnesses and no documentation.
it all makes me worry about the stuff i saved on hard drive and on the internet up load. will it be there when i am not. makes a guy think huh?
surely a great deal more faith is required of us than it was for those that saw jesus and were there for the whole thing. another thing to think about is the lie factor. its very easy and cheap to put ink on paper and tell people about their pension plans every 90 days, but much more expensive to pay them money when its due. been there done that. conversly easier to tear up documents about jesus than to create or produce them or explain them. i mean what up with an arab guy in a tent with a single shot rifle tearing up the dead seas scrolls and using it for firewood.
why wasnt it in a museum? lots of factors involved.

stephen s
san diego
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Old 09-03-2007, 06:34 PM
 
Location: All around the world.....
2,886 posts, read 7,258,820 times
Reputation: 1043
Quote:
Originally Posted by shibainu View Post
In the year 325 CE, Constantine (a non-baptized Pagan) convened the Council of Nicea to settle disputes in the Church. The council changed Jesus from man to God in the flesh, they changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, and the Passover was changed to Easter. Among the nearly 200 Gospels circulating in the first three hundred years of this era, the Catholic Church canonized only four. Origen, the great Catholic father, confirms this fact: "And not four Gospels, but very many, out of which these we have chosen."

A partial list of the different books considered by the Church for inclusion were a gospel written by Jesus’ own hand; letters and other correspondences written by Jesus; letters written by the "virgin" Mary; Pilate’s official report to the emperor of the trial and crucifixion of Jesus, with Pilate’s confession of faith; the reply to this from Tiberius, and the trial of Pilate; official documents of the Roman Senate about Jesus; Gospels, epistles, acts, by every single one of the twelve apostles; and official documents of church law and government, written in Greek by the apostles. In his book, Answering Christianity's Most Puzzling Questions, Christian apologist Richard Sisson states:


"In fact, after the death of Jesus a whole flood of books that claimed to be inspired appeared.... Disputes over which ones were true were so intense that the debate continued for centuries. Finally in the fourth century a group of church leaders called a council and took a vote. The 66 books that comprised our cherished Bible were declared to be Scripture by a vote of 568 to 563."

There is no reference to Jesus' death having any redeeming function; in fact, there is no mention of the crucifixion at all. John E. Remsburg's The Christ: A Critical Review and Analysis of the Evidence of His Existence, lists the following writers who lived during the time, or within a century after the time, that Jesus is supposed to have lived:

Josephus
Philo-Judææus
Seneca
Pliny Elder
Arrian
Petronius
Dion Pruseus
Paterculus
Suetonius
Juvenal
Martial
Persius
Plutarch
Pliny Younger
Tacitus
Justus of Tiberius
Apollonius
Quintilian
Lucanus
Epictetus
Hermogones Silius Italicus
Statius
Ptolemy
Appian
Phlegon
Phæædrus
Valerius Maximus
Lucian
Pausanias
Florus Lucius
Quintius Curtius
Aulus Gellius
Dio Chrysostom
Columella
Valerius Flaccus
Damis
Favorinus
Lysias
Pomponius Mela
Appion of Alexandria
Theon of Smyrna

Enough of the writings of the authors named in the foregoing list remains to form a library. Yet in this mass of Jewish and Pagan literature, according to Remsburg, "aside from two forged passages in the works of a Jewish author, and two disputed passages in the works of Roman writers, there is to be found no mention of Jesus Christ." Nor, do any of these authors make note of the Disciples or Apostles -- increasing the embarrassment from the silence of history concerning the foundation of Christianity.

Messiah Truth: A Jewish Response to Missionary Groups
If I were looking for a needle in a haystack, I would probably search anywhere
around the barn. This link does not actually advocate Jesus, they are anti-
Christ. So of course you get what they're serving. Hatred and cover-up.
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Old 09-03-2007, 06:42 PM
 
Location: All around the world.....
2,886 posts, read 7,258,820 times
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Check out kev's thread and Graywolf post on 8/03/07
on the thread of "Josephus as proof of the existence of Jesus
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Old 09-03-2007, 08:47 PM
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
897 posts, read 2,181,762 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yhwhshalomjr View Post
If I were looking for a needle in a haystack, I would probably search anywhere
around the barn. This link does not actually advocate Jesus, they are anti-
Christ. So of course you get what they're serving. Hatred and cover-up.
You will not find much about Jesus anywhere outside the bible. Only Christians advocate Jesus. Seculars and other religions could careless.

MITHRA=JESUS CHRIST
MITHRAISM (PAGAN WORSHIP) +JUDAISM = CHRISTIANITY (plagiarism)


It may seem like hate to you but it is history. I did not write history.
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Old 09-03-2007, 09:47 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,715 posts, read 11,874,284 times
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Well, to my knowledge, most historians only have documents that were written between 35 and 350 years after Jesus' death. I find that to be another basis for the inaccuracy of the Bible. People say that that isn't a very long time, but indeed it is in terms of human life spans. I just can't imagine writing a novel about Hitler (even though he was alive just 60 something years ago) and getting all the intricacies down exactly right.

Let's put it this way. I can name a lot of Hitler's head honchos, his right hand men, and what they did during the war, but I certainly can't tell you with entire accuracy, the names, places, and events that occurred while doing very little research. People living thousands of years ago didn't have Google, Wikipedia, or just plain old encyclopedias to aid them in their research. So, I can't see how documents written YEARS after the time of Christ could be so "highly accurate". It seems to me that this is the reason that the Bible contradicts itself so many times, and it's also one of the many reasons I do not believe the Bible.

Now, I may be able to prevent a logical timeline of the life of Hitler and some of his associates, but for me to write a full book on his works and doings while doing very little research, and going mostly from word of mouth, I would imagine there would be many false statements in my book regardless of the intentions.

P.S.- I am not trying to compare Hitler to Jesus as men of equal moral values. I'm just trying to compare two highly influential people in history to make a decent comparison.

Oh, and let's not forget about the books written 350 years later! Imagine trying to write a book on Thomas Jefferson without doing enormous amounts of research!
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Old 09-03-2007, 10:08 PM
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
897 posts, read 2,181,762 times
Reputation: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by yhwhshalomjr View Post
Check out kev's thread and Graywolf post on 8/03/07
on the thread of "Josephus as proof of the existence of Jesus
Unfortantly josephus more than likely was not alive or able to write at the time of jesus trial. most people believe jesus lived Between 4bc to 33-34a.d. Josephus was born in 37ad. So he was not an eyewitness.


I did find a webpage that has supposedly other accounts of Jesus.
Ancient Jewish Accounts of Jesus
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Old 09-04-2007, 08:42 AM
 
Location: Midwest
5,615 posts, read 13,438,049 times
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"They generally agree on these basic points: Jesus was a Jewish teacher[1] who attracted a small following of Galileans and, after a period of ministry, was crucified by the Romans in Palestine during the governorship of Pontius Pilate."
--http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus

That is what is universally accepted, but the real question that you need to ask is whether Jesus is really who he said he was. That's where one's faith enters. That's all Jesus asks, nothing more.
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Old 09-04-2007, 09:41 AM
 
204 posts, read 455,878 times
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I am of the opinion that there are only three possible explanations for Jesus:

1. Jesus really was who He said He was
2. Jesus was a crazy delusional man who was clearly insane
3. Jesus was not crazy, but he was a total liar and wanted to deceive everyone.

When you begin to study the teachings of Jesus and read his sermons, He does NOT sound like a crazy person. He teaches are profound and make absolute sense to me. He does not say or do things that a mentally challenged person would do. He’s thoughts are very rational and well put together. He often challenged the “philosophical” people of his time and quite frankly made them look like fools. That’s hardly in the realm of a crazy person.

As far as Him being a liar…a person might LIVE for a lie but nobody would knowingly DIE for something they knew was a lie! Nobody would give their life for something they knew wasn’t true. Who would allow themselves to be tortured for a lie? Then crucified? When all they had to do to live was tell the truth. Somebody might die for the truth, but nobody would die for a lie. Where in history have you seen anybody DIE for something that they KNEW FOR SURE was a lie?

So I adhere to number #1. I believe Jesus was who indeed He said He was!
IMHO
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Old 09-04-2007, 10:06 AM
sun
 
Location: Central Connecticut
683 posts, read 1,913,097 times
Reputation: 443
Quote:
There is no evidence outside the bible that descibes jesus.
We also have no records of the disciples ever existing except for the
bible.So I think this thread is going to have a very hard time showing
outside the bible that jesus was who he claimed to be.
The Shroud of Turin exists outside of the Bible and describes Jesus.
It's very preservation very well might represent a miracle of sorts,
especially since it hasn't been explained away.
And the fact that His Church, which spread through His eyewitnesses
the Apostles, has survived and grown despite the attempts of the most
powerful of men to extinguish it, may be considered to be evidence & another
miracle all by itself.
Just look here, a flag, a Church and a state dedicated to someone who was
"merely" crucified 2000 years ago, and all based on eyewitness accounts.
If not miraculous, it's certainly amazing.


Quote:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/flags/vt-lgflag.gif (broken link)

Flag Description:
two vertical bands of yellow (hoist side) and white with the arms
of the Holy See, consisting of the crossed keys of Saint Peter
surmounted by the three-tiered papal tiara, centered in the white band

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/flags/vt-flag.html (broken link)
A Church, a nation, and a virtual photo of a dead, crucified Christ,
maybe there should be a movie too? But the book usually proceeds the
movie, and thanks to Mel Gibson one did make it to the silver screen.

All of this certainly is evidence!

Last edited by sun; 09-04-2007 at 10:34 AM..
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Old 09-04-2007, 10:12 AM
 
204 posts, read 455,878 times
Reputation: 134
The Quran tells of Jesus doing miracles and of His Virgin birth. Thats not the bible.
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