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A nobody from an inbred village in Austria who dropped out of high school, failed two art exams, so he wandered the streets of Vienna living in a homeless shelter for men and selling mediocre watercolors to make a living --- and somehow he ended up causing the greatest human catastrophe the world has ever seen. And, even today, foreign policy, military decisions, and domestic policy is influenced by what he did -- either to avoid being like him ... or to be like him.
And, just like Christ, Hitler still has adherents and cultists who live by Hitler's code with the same fanaticism as any religion. No doubt, those cults and hate groups will be around for many hundreds if not thousands of years. I'm almost willing to guarantee that sooner or later there will be another Hitlerite dictator who will be an adherent to the Nazi doctrines.
He should have remained a nobody -- but like Christ, Hitler had an undeniable charisma that charmed one of the most educated, cultured, advanced ... and Christian ... nations in the world. As Christ essentially did to Rome. No one could even kill the guy as he almost miraculously escaped every attempt made on his life in the 12 years he was in power. And like Christ, Hitler was hunted by the most powerful nations of the age -- and though Hitler wasn't crucified, he still met an unnatural end.
Ironically, too, both Christ and Hitler had a messiah complex -- and many in Germany actually saw Hitler as god-like. I remember a letter written by a German girl: "Hitler is a genius, a person sent to us from Heaven."
The parallels between the two are really quite remarkable -- one good, one evil.
Well ... Jesus was ostensibly good. He DID bring the Hellthreat to Abrahamic beliefs. That makes him worse than Hitler -- because at least Hitler couldn't torture people for all eternity.
Your take on religion is incredibly messed up.
One, there ARE documents. Tacitus wrote about him, so did Josephus, Pliny the Younger, as did the Babylonian Talmud, and Lucian.
Some of these did not have nice things to say about him, but they very much verified that he was around.
And you just compared Jesus to Hitler? Really?!?
Hitler killed not only thousands of Jews, but also LGBT ppl, the Poles, the Slavs, the Serbs, the Slovenes, the Spanish Republicans, the Romani, the disabled, Freemasons, and Jehovah's witnesses.
Jesus killed... oh wait, he didn't kill ANYONE. He died on the cross.
So yes, he mentioned Hell. Only... he didn't. This word did not EXIST in 1st century Middle East. It is a concept imported from Christian encounters with pagans, particularly the Norse. The word he mentioned was closer in concept to "outer darkness". Which also sounds bad... until you realize at the time, the average Jew did not have a next-world vision of punishment in the afterlife, but a this-world condemnation/reward ideology. In other words, if you fail to act this way, you will be punished on Earth, your life will create sadness and loneliness. As an atheist, I imagine you can relate to a this-world mentality, as you are basically modern-day Saducees (didn't believe in spirits, didn't believe in the afterlife).
There is no Hell. You just die if you do not accept salvation. Since atheists seem to already want to do that, why the hangup?
There is actually only one depiction of the afterlife as being one of punishment that I can think of offhand, and that is from the story of Lazarus and the rich guy. The story is less about the afterlife though and more about how the way you treat others in this life will reflect on you. But the punishment is not really the point of this story.
Quote:
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Ahem.
Christianity is not about "do good things or you'll go to hell." Do the right thing or you'll be punished, that was Judaism. They lived according to the law. But what Christianity is about is something I couldn't easily explain to you.
Under the law, we are like the rich man. We have ignored our fellow man. But despite Christ saying those very words, he did in fact rise from the dead for us. He died for our sins to be forgiven, to give us grace. Will we listen, or be like the five brothers?
We have these two ideas that are in hard contrast: moral legalism of "do this or you go to hell" or "there is not God, I can do what I want."
When we try to live without the law, to declare ourselves righteous we are condemned. When we live under the law, we are tortured by the law. We wind up punishing ourselves. For a quick example, we can do this without mentioning hell. When you drink alcohol you can drink it with restraint and have the enjoyment, yet not the nasty burn of a hangover. Or we can never drink (as I do), and suffer under the crushing horror of perpetual sobriety. Or we can act like there is no consequence of overdrinking alcohol and vomit for most of the next day.
Jesus did not teach hell. Stupid Christians did. All of us Christians are at fault for misinterpreting Jesus's words. But no, Jesus did not teach such a thing. What did Christianity really teach? "8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar, and His word is not in us." The middle path between complete lawlessness and legalism is to recognize that we humans are not perfect, but that Christ forgives.
Some of these did not have nice things to say about him, but they very much verified that he was around.
And you just compared Jesus to Hitler? Really?!?
Hitler killed not only thousands of Jews, but also LGBT ppl, the Poles, the Slavs, the Serbs, the Slovenes, the Spanish Republicans, the Romani, the disabled, Freemasons, and Jehovah's witnesses.
Jesus killed... oh wait, he didn't kill ANYONE. He died on the cross.
So yes, he mentioned Hell. Only... he didn't. This word did not EXIST in 1st century Middle East. It is a concept imported from Christian encounters with pagans, particularly the Norse. The word he mentioned was closer in concept to "outer darkness". Which also sounds bad... until you realize at the time, the average Jew did not have a next-world vision of punishment in the afterlife, but a this-world condemnation/reward ideology. In other words, if you fail to act this way, you will be punished on Earth, your life will create sadness and loneliness. As an atheist, I imagine you can relate to a this-world mentality, as you are basically modern-day Saducees (didn't believe in spirits, didn't believe in the afterlife).
There is no Hell. You just die if you do not accept salvation. Since atheists seem to already want to do that, why the hangup?
There is actually only one depiction of the afterlife as being one of punishment that I can think of offhand, and that is from the story of Lazarus and the rich guy. The story is less about the afterlife though and more about how the way you treat others in this life will reflect on you. But the punishment is not really the point of this story.
Ahem.
Christianity is not about "do good things or you'll go to hell." Do the right thing or you'll be punished, that was Judaism. They lived according to the law. But what Christianity is about is something I couldn't easily explain to you.
Under the law, we are like the rich man. We have ignored our fellow man. But despite Christ saying those very words, he did in fact rise from the dead for us. He died for our sins to be forgiven, to give us grace. Will we listen, or be like the five brothers?
We have these two ideas that are in hard contrast: moral legalism of "do this or you go to hell" or "there is not God, I can do what I want."
When we try to live without the law, to declare ourselves righteous we are condemned. When we live under the law, we are tortured by the law. We wind up punishing ourselves. For a quick example, we can do this without mentioning hell. When you drink alcohol you can drink it with restraint and have the enjoyment, yet not the nasty burn of a hangover. Or we can never drink (as I do), and suffer under the crushing horror of perpetual sobriety. Or we can act like there is no consequence of overdrinking alcohol and vomit for most of the next day.
Jesus did not teach hell. Stupid Christians did. All of us Christians are at fault for misinterpreting Jesus's words. But no, Jesus did not teach such a thing. What did Christianity really teach? "8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar, and His word is not in us." The middle path between complete lawlessness and legalism is to recognize that we humans are not perfect, but that Christ forgives.
But you will not understand this.
Most of us don't question that Jesus existed. But of course, you ignore that and then carry on with your propaganda. What most of us argue is that there is no reliable evidence of the "magic" aspect...you know...the miracles.
A comparison with Hitler is not unfair. How many times do Christians say that there has been no more influential person in world history than Jesus...despite the fact that he has little affect on the people of the world who belong to other religions. Similarly, Hitler was an extremely influential person who plunged much of the world into a world war that cost the lives of 50-80 million people.
Naturally hell wasn't in the languages of the time. Neither were other words. It's a different language. I mean duh.
I have news for you -- to many Christians it is exactly about do bad things and go to hell. Apparently you never sat through a "fire and brimstone" sermon. You're badly out of touch. And you say the other poster won't understand your teaching...well, many Christians don't understand/agree with your teaching. And that's part of the problem: if Christianity is so true, why can't you Christians get your act together?
Christianity spread because it's 'popularity' was encouraged by torture and death.
You may well believe them. Unfortunately for you, that doesn't mean that what you believe is true.
LMAO! I suggest you read a little about the history of Christianity. Start with The Crusades. There were 9 of them from 1095 to 1291, and then move on to The Inquisition...then have a look at all the other wars and conflict that have occurred after that that have been fueled by Christianity. Then you can come back and tell us that the spread of Christianity was without armies and without fighting.
You really have got it arse-backwards haven't you?
The Crusades were caused by the Fatimid Muslims in Egypt
Where they announced orders to burn and destroy the churches of Palestine
The Europeans went to save those holy sites
For your information, all the Crusades can not be supported by one clear text of the Gospel
I challenge you to give me clear evidence of the gospel calling for fighting and jihad
The Europeans launched these wars to defend themselves from the barbaric Islamic invasion
After they managed to expel the Muslim occupier from Spain
It is a historical mistake that Christians in the Middle East did not stand with the Europeans
Regrettably, Muslims known for their betrayal of the covenants worked to destroy Christianity in the Middle East. The last wave was the total elimination of the Christian presence in the city of Mosul
We Christians of the East take responsibility for what happens to us because we did not stand with the Europeans in those holy wars
Christianity spread because it's 'popularity' was encouraged by torture and death.
You may well believe them. Unfortunately for you, that doesn't mean that what you believe is true.
LMAO! I suggest you read a little about the history of Christianity. Start with The Crusades. There were 9 of them from 1095 to 1291, and then move on to The Inquisition...then have a look at all the other wars and conflict that have occurred after that that have been fueled by Christianity. Then you can come back and tell us that the spread of Christianity was without armies and without fighting.
You really have got it arse-backwards haven't you?
Christianity spread because it called for the liberation of man and mind and did not use a sword and did not provide a text calling for fighting and terrorism
In Christianity there are no provisions for the distribution of spoils of war, including women
So that the master of your nation was one of his wives of women prisoners after her husband was killed and you know her well
I urge you to give me a text that calls for carrying the sword and fighting from the four Gospels
Which Christians today deal with
Most of us don't question that Jesus existed. But of course, you ignore that and then carry on with your propaganda. What most of us argue is that there is no reliable evidence of the "magic" aspect...you know...the miracles.
A comparison with Hitler is not unfair. How many times do Christians say that there has been no more influential person in world history than Jesus...despite the fact that he has little affect on the people of the world who belong to other religions. Similarly, Hitler was an extremely influential person who plunged much of the world into a world war that cost the lives of 50-80 million people.
Naturally hell wasn't in the languages of the time. Neither were other words. It's a different language. I mean duh.
I have news for you -- to many Christians it is exactly about do bad things and go to hell. Apparently you never sat through a "fire and brimstone" sermon. You're badly out of touch. And you say the other poster won't understand your teaching...well, many Christians don't understand/agree with your teaching. And that's part of the problem: if Christianity is so true, why can't you Christians get your act together?
If you want to work a comparison between Hitler and Jesus you will fail
But if you want to do a comparison between Hitler and others, I think you will succeed
Christ said that my kingdom is not in this world
While Hitler was responding to the re-eminence of the Germanic Empire
This is the first difference
Hitler was the commander of the armies while Christ was a teacher to twelve disciples
Christ did not issue orders to kill and fight
Can you compare Jesus and Hitler? I invite you to write the subject to compare Hitler and others who have goals in controlling the world and you know them well
Greetings
Christianity spread because it called for the liberation of man and mind and did not use a sword and did not provide a text calling for fighting and terrorism
In Christianity there are no provisions for the distribution of spoils of war, including women
So that the master of your nation was one of his wives of women prisoners after her husband was killed and you know her well
I urge you to give me a text that calls for carrying the sword and fighting from the four Gospels
Which Christians today deal with
Really? You never heard of the conquests of parts of Latin and South America? Talk about cherry picking!
Padgett,
I understand what you are saying, but people saw Jesus turn water into wine, create fish and bread out of nothing and heal the sick that could not be physically healed. A man, paralyzed for 35 years, got up from the floor in front of hundreds of people at a pool for the sick. This is just a sampling.
Despite all of this, some people still did not believe--and they even thought Jesus was a magician, like you said. Even miracles could not turn the unbelievers into believers. Today, a man flying in the sky with nothing will still be doubted as real no matter what. I was watching CSPAN this morning and heard that Bush is in Iraq. Many people called into the show and said they still don't believe it--despite video showing Bush there!!
If people dont' want to believe, they won't.
Shibainu, all I can say is this: The fact that every one of Jesus’ disciples was willing to suffer and die for his beliefs. These men spent the rest of their lives witnessing about Christ. They frequently went without food; they were mocked, beaten, and thrown into prison. In the end, all but one died a painful martyr’s death. Would they have done this for a lie? They did it because they were convinced beyond a doubt that they had seen the risen Christ.
There are Muslims who do these same things in the name of Allah and I'm sure other people in past times who held ideas that didn't conform to the society at the time. Just because somebody does extreme things in the name of some idea does not prove that idea's reality. Apparently Muslim hijackers thought they would be met with virgins seconds after crashing planes into buildings. Does that mean virgins exist in some Muslim heaven?
One, there ARE documents. Tacitus wrote about him, so did Josephus, Pliny the Younger, as did the Babylonian Talmud, and Lucian.
The earliest documents from Tacitus said Chrestians, not Christians. And you can not derive Chrestians from Christ. Also, no one mentioned this passage for centuries, so probably fake.
The TF paraphrases Luke, uses none Josephan grammar, and the vocabulary of Eusebius (who coincidentally was the first to mention this passage. Twice. Each version differing from the other. So probably forged. Which makes the dubious James reference even more dubious.
Pliny the Younger does not mention Jesus. He says the Christians worship Christ as or like a god (the text varies). but it doesn't say what this Christ was, and gives us ZERO historical details about this Christ.
The Talmud says Jesus died over 70 years before the gospels say he was born, and that he was stoned to death in Pella with his FIVE disciples.
Lucian, 2nd century AD, was responding to Christians, so is not independent.
Your take on history is incredibly messed up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144
Jesus killed... oh wait, he didn't kill ANYONE. He died on the cross.
So yes, he mentioned Hell. Only... he didn't.
Jesus mentions having people thrown into the fires of Gehenna, which later evolved into the idea of hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144
When we try to live without the law, to declare ourselves righteous we are condemned.
So you still think I should be stoned for not believing; that rape of female captives is OK; and slavery is hunky dory?
Last edited by Harry Diogenes; 02-08-2018 at 03:48 AM..
Reason: Spelling
I do. the text of Hebrews says it was written before the fall of Jerusalem, and says a divine being called Jesus who was revealed in the OT sacrificed himself once and once only in heaven.
Which conflicts with the later, fictional gospels. That is why I now take the idea of a myth to man Jesus very seriously indeed.
Scroat
/ skreut. adj. A person with no ambition to better themselves, happy to sponge off the state / welfare system. A social leech. Often of little intelligence or poorly educated, but unaware of their limitations. Occurs within all social age groups (they are living longer despite out efforts to poison with alcohol or tobacco). Often one family member may have held employment within local manual labour sector, and will endeavor to wash at least fortnightly. Their offspring however see no reason to contribute to society, except only to burden it further with their own ferrel inter-related produce.
Due to their social habits and needs scroats are often founds in groups or packs. They have complex interwoven family / community structures which are fiercely territorial. When not in their own social housing area the males can be found looking for anything of value not bolted down. Often congregate outside suppliers of cheap alcohol, betting shops, or post offices (when collecting their benefits). The females however favor pregnancy as a means to securing housing or greater financial income.
You're reading too much into it bro. It's short for Scr*tum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144
One, there ARE documents. Tacitus wrote about him, so did Josephus, Pliny the Younger, as did the Babylonian Talmud, and Lucian.
Nope! But then, you've had it explained to you enough times in the past. Your M.O is to simply ignore and repeat.
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