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Old 09-04-2007, 11:20 AM
 
255 posts, read 405,839 times
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I am of the opinion that there are only three possible explanations for Jesus:

1. Jesus really was who He said He was
2. Jesus was a crazy delusional man who was clearly insane
3. Jesus was not crazy, but he was a total liar and wanted to deceive everyone.


I can think of at least one more possibility:
4. Jesus was a great moral teacher whose followers loved him so much and were so bereft when he died that they eventually built up a theology around his birth, life, and death.

After all, the Bible doesn't tell us what Jesus said, it tells us what his followers said he said. They might be the same thing, of course, but the possibility certainly exists that they are different.
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Old 09-04-2007, 11:23 AM
 
204 posts, read 354,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MomtoFour View Post
I am of the opinion that there are only three possible explanations for Jesus:

1. Jesus really was who He said He was
2. Jesus was a crazy delusional man who was clearly insane
3. Jesus was not crazy, but he was a total liar and wanted to deceive everyone.


I can think of at least one more possibility:
4. Jesus was a great moral teacher whose followers loved him so much and were so bereft when he died that they eventually built up a theology around his birth, life, and death.

After all, the Bible doesn't tell us what Jesus said, it tells us what his followers said he said. They might be the same thing, of course, but the possibility certainly exists that they are different.
That to me goes back to the fact that nobody is going to knowingly die for something that they know for sure is a lie. Most of the apostles were killed upholding the teachings of Jesus. If they knew for a fact that he was either crazy or a liar...do you think they would give their lives for a lie??? I don't. Just my opinion
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Old 09-04-2007, 11:31 AM
 
Location: Wilmington, DE
679 posts, read 995,590 times
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Quote:
Also, this was a time of magicians. Men who went about doing sleight of hand tricks so that even the educated were dumbfounded. We see them performing on stage today. The difference is that we KNOW that there are tricks. Back in those days, it would have been difficult for even the educated man to know that he was actually seeing a God-guided miracle.
True, but that similarly opens the door to Jesus having been just a really good magician then.


Josephus testimony has been considered fraudulent since at least the early 19th century. You can read my post on this forum here (scroll down, I don't know how to link to a specific post, sorry) and my points on Tacitus, Suetonius, Phlegon, and more at the top of this page. The logic that if a study of these coming from a jew or an atheist makes them slanted one way then that also would mean that studies from christian sites would also have to be slanted the other way. Perhaps read both and see what sounds more true with an open mind if you can.

Quote:
That to me goes back to the fact that nobody is going to knowingly die for something that they know for sure is a lie. Most of the apostles were killed upholding the teachings of Jesus. If they knew for a fact that he was either crazy or a liar...do you think they would give their lives for a lie??? I don't.
Believing something doesn't make it true, it just means you believe it is.
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Old 09-04-2007, 11:48 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyChief View Post
True, but that similarly opens the door to Jesus having been just a really good magician then. .
Well then He also magically appeared in the Quran as doing miracles as well. And Muslims don't even believe in all of the bible. You have at least two of the oldest religions on Earth giving a testimony of Jesus preforming miracles and of His virgin birth. Thats some pretty good evidence to me. Just my opinion


Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyChief View Post
Believing something doesn't make it true, it just means you believe it is.
Indeed! I was responding to another poster who basically said the real questions is ...Is Jesus who He said He was? I gave actual reasons as to why I believe what I do. You said was believing something doesn't make it true. I agree, but do you have other reasons besides this as to why you believe Jesus was NOT who He said He was? I'm just curious to see what others feel and what they have based their claims on.
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Old 09-04-2007, 12:18 PM
 
Location: Tetons, WY
5,569 posts, read 9,646,733 times
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How many of you believe in UFOs?
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Old 09-04-2007, 12:39 PM
 
Location: Wilmington, DE
679 posts, read 995,590 times
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Funny, you'll use the Quran when it supports what you want. LOL
I hardly think another holy book and even more people believing something makes it more true.

Thing is none of us KNOW if Jesus was real, or if he was whether he was really this or that. It's all faith, and you can believe what you want but when you start getting into proofs I think you run into trouble so it's better you just don't bother, imo.
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Old 09-04-2007, 12:57 PM
 
204 posts, read 354,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyChief View Post
Funny, you'll use the Quran when it supports what you want. LOL
I hardly think another holy book and even more people believing something makes it more true.
To backup one's claims obviously one would use something that supports their arguement. Thats the whole purpose of backing up your claims
Why would I use something that doesn't support my opinion? That doesn't make any sense! The original question was 'is there any other document besides the bible to offer evidence of Jesus?'. I simply said He is also in the Quran. Thats fact! Whether you believe the Quran or not is a different story. I just said He is in it! Thats Undisputable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyChief View Post
Thing is none of us KNOW if Jesus was real, or if he was whether he was really this or that. It's all faith, and you can believe what you want but when you start getting into proofs I think you run into trouble so it's better you just don't bother, imo.
I agree it is all about faith. I believe Jesus was who He said He was. I believe He was real just as much as I believe you are real. I don't have any hard evidence that you exist either except for a few writings I've seen on this message board (that somebody could have made up). But I believe you exist
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Old 09-04-2007, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Wilmington, DE
679 posts, read 995,590 times
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That's fine, stick with the "I believe" angle because you can't be touched. That's really the end of any discussion. It's just when things like Josephus or that bit about insurgents in Rome get waved about that you open yourself up for criticism. I really don't think those things are good christian strategies since they can be easily challenged.

Thanks for the belief in my existence. That's at least one guarantee I won't suddenly disappear in a poof of smoke.
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Old 09-04-2007, 01:15 PM
 
Location: Tetons, WY
5,569 posts, read 9,646,733 times
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So again, how many of you KNOW that Christoper Columbus existed? Isn't all of history faith?
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Old 09-04-2007, 01:19 PM
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
897 posts, read 1,658,397 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasNick View Post
"They generally agree on these basic points: Jesus was a Jewish teacher[1] who attracted a small following of Galileans and, after a period of ministry, was crucified by the Romans in Palestine during the governorship of Pontius Pilate."
--http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus

That is what is universally accepted, but the real question that you need to ask is whether Jesus is really who he said he was. That's where one's faith enters. That's all Jesus asks, nothing more.
That is a great question. Pauline teaching is very heavy in the new testament and he contradicts the gospels in some points.
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