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Old 09-04-2007, 12:21 PM
 
204 posts, read 455,878 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasNick View Post
So again, how many of you KNOW that Christoper Columbus existed? Isn't all of history faith?
Good point. I can't really prove anybody in history existed except for old writings I've seen, and testimony of witnesses. I just believe Mr. Columbus existed as well . I guess that is faith!
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Old 09-04-2007, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
897 posts, read 2,181,762 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasNick View Post
So again, how many of you KNOW that Christoper Columbus existed? Isn't all of history faith?
No most people look for written accounts. I believe it is very hard to find written accounts about the bible because two reasons. 1 over time artifacts were destroyed by nature or by people. 2 many people 2000-4000 years ago could not read or write as well as today’s time so there may have been a lot of oral traditions/stories instead of written.
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Old 09-04-2007, 12:38 PM
 
Location: Wilmington, DE
679 posts, read 1,308,749 times
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TexasNick brings up an old tactic where I've even heard some say you can't prove Washington existed either. If you're going to go down that road, then there's little if anything you can prove absolutely. That line of thinking is empty. What we do is gather evidence, look at that plus what experience tells us and reach decisions like that the light should come on when you flick the switch (or clap your hands if you have a Clapper). That's not faith, and if you think it is you still have to admit it's not the same kind of faith as believing in gods. The assertion of this tactic is usually either that god is as real as Columbus or that all faith is the same so faith in a god is the same as faith in the light switch. Hey, those assertions may be true but logically those arguments are flawed.
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Old 09-04-2007, 12:47 PM
 
Location: Midwest
5,615 posts, read 13,438,049 times
Reputation: 2717
Right, and Jesus said you won't understand and that man can't understand. But all that believe in him, will live forever. He knows it's tough and even his disciples did not believe him and often questioned him. EVEN I QUESTION---but so did Peter, Jesus' most beloved disciple, wavered in his faith. Heck, not even Jesus only brothers believed in him (John 7:5 "For not even His brothers believed in Him") That is normal and Jesus knew it and said that believing in him can not be done over night. The thousands of people that saw Jesus turn water into wine, multiply fish, etc still did not believe in Him. All Jesus wanted, according to Scripture, was your faith. He did not ask for anymore more and he does not ask for your "good works" or to be a "Mother Teresa" for the lack of a better word.

Btw, I was reading the great book about Washington called 1776 written by my favorite author David McCullough. Guess how many sources he cites for the Battle of Trenton and the capture of Colonel Rall. One. Yes, just one. And it was another soldier's journal. McCullough's book is classified as NON-FICTION. The guy won a Pulitzer and is considered one of the great historians of our time.

Philly, all I am saying is that I understand where you are coming from. I won't argue with you (I don't consider it arguing, just disagreeing!) and I respect your viewpoints. I enjoyed reading and participating in this thread and I've learned alot about myself, as well. Thanks.

Last edited by doss1; 09-04-2007 at 01:32 PM.. Reason: wrong rank
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Old 12-20-2007, 09:28 PM
 
1 posts, read 2,445 times
Reputation: 10
Texas Nick - re "The fact that every one of Jesus' disciples was willing ... " is invalid. Is that the criteria for establishing truth? So by that logic martyred Muslims had proclaimed the truth? Let's all worship Muhammad?
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Old 05-13-2010, 07:34 PM
 
1 posts, read 1,987 times
Reputation: 10
Default Here Ya Go

It sounds to me like you were convinced before you sought out the truth. When you start out with a goal in mind usually no matter the amount of evidence against it you will fulfill that goal.

Enjoy

Josephus
About this time lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was the achiever of extraordinary deeds and was a teacher of those who accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When he was indicted by the principal men among us and Pilate condemned him to be crucified, those who had come to love him originally did not cease to do so; for he appeared to them on the third day restored to life, as the prophets of the Deity had foretold these and countless other marvelous things about him, and the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day. (All Josephus citations, except the next, are from P. L. Maier, ed./trans., Josephus –The Essential Works

Plinius Secundus, Pliny The Younger - Governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor (A.D. 112), Pliny was writing the emperor Trajan seeking counsel as to how to treat the Christians. He explained that he had been killing both men and women, boys and girls. There were so many being put to death that he wondered if he should continue killing anyone who was discovered to be a Christian, or if he should kill only certain ones. He explained that he had made the Christians bow down to the statues of Trajan. He goes on to say that he also "made them curse Christ, which a genuine Christian cannot be induced to do." In the same letter he says of the people who were being tried:

"They affirmed, however, that the whole of their guilt, or their error, was that they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verse a hymn to Christ as to a God, and bound themselves to a solemn oath, not to do any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft, adultery, never to falsify their word, not to deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up (Epistles, X. 96).

Suetonius (A.D. 120) - A Roman historian, a court official under Hadrian, annalist of the Imperial House, Suetonius says: "As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [another spelling of Christus], he expelled them from Rome" (Life of Claudius, 25. 4). He also writes: "Punishment by Nero was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition" (Lives of the Caesars, 26. 2)

Tertullian (Regarding Pilate and Tiberius) - Jurist-theologian of Carthage, in a defense of Christianity (A.D. 197) before the Roman authorities in Africa, mentions the exchange between Tiberius and Pontius Pilate: "Tiberius accordingly, in whose days the Christian name made its entry into the world, having himself received intelligence from the truth of Christ's divinity, brought the matter before the senate, with his own decision in favor of Christ. The senate, because it had not given the approval itself, rejected his proposal. Caesar held to his opinion, threatening wrath against all the accusers of the Christians (Apology, V.2).

Thallus, the Samaritan-born historian - One of the first Gentile writers who mentions Christ is Thallus, who wrote in A.D. 52. However, his writings have disappeared and we only know of them from fragments cited by other writers. One such writer is Julius Africanus, a Christian writer about A.D. 221. One very interesting passage relates to a comment from Thallus. Julius Africanus writes: "Thallus in the third book of his histories, explains away this darkness as an eclipse of the sun- unreasonably, as it seems to me" (unreasonably, of course, because a solar eclipse could not take place at the time of the full moon, and it was the season of the Paschal full moon that Christ died). Thus from this reference we see that the Gospel account of the darkness that fell upon the land during Christ's crucifixion was well-known and required a naturalistic explanation from those non-believers who witnessed it. 10/113

Phlegon, a first century historian - He is also mentioned by Julius Africanus, and quotes Phlegon that "during the time of Tiberius Caesar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon". 60/n.p. Phlegon is also mentioned by Origen in Contra Celsum, Book 2, sections 14, 33, 59. "And about this darkness..." He says that "Phlegon mentioned the eclipse which took place during the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus Christ, and no other [eclipse], it is clear he did not know from his sources about any [similar] eclipse in previous times... and this is shown by the historical account itself of Tiberius Caesar."

And then there is the Letter of Mara Bar-Serapion - It is in the British Museum. A manuscript preserving the text of a letter written around A.D.73. This letter was sent by a Syrian named Mara Bar-Serapion to his son Serapion. He instances the deaths of Socrates, Pythagoras and Christ. "What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King? It was just after that their kingdom was abolished. God avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise king die for good; He lived on in theteaching which He had given. 10/114
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Old 05-13-2010, 07:39 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn
40,058 posts, read 29,185,180 times
Reputation: 10427
SavedOne, you do realize that every "source" you quoted wrote at least half a century after Jesus' time, don't you? A contemporary account of his miracles--assuming there were such things--would have had to be written during his lifetime. Not 50 or 100 years later.
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Old 05-14-2010, 11:04 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
13,151 posts, read 9,254,005 times
Reputation: 2245
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback View Post
Either Christ and his followers were the most successful con men in history
( 2,000 years, billions of followers ), or they are on to something.
Either Brahma and his followers were the most successful con men in history (3,000 years and billions of followers), or they are on to something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gospelsaves View Post
As far as Him being a liar…a person might LIVE for a lie but nobody would knowingly DIE for something they knew was a lie! Nobody would give their life for something they knew wasn’t true. Who would allow themselves to be tortured for a lie? Then crucified? When all they had to do to live was tell the truth. Somebody might die for the truth, but nobody would die for a lie. Where in history have you seen anybody DIE for something that they KNEW FOR SURE was a lie?
But other than the Bible, you have no evidence that the disciples/apostles even existed. And even if you could prove their existence you would then have to prove they died "willingly". It may have been the case that they were killed anyway...whether they renounced their beliefs or not ...in which case they wouldn't be martyrs but victims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sun View Post
The Shroud of Turin exists outside of the Bible and describes Jesus.
No it doesn't! Even if were to be dated to the 1st century (which it isn't). Even if it could be traced to Palestine (which it can't)...all it would prove is that it covered the body of a man that was crucified in 1st century Palestine. There were many hundreds if not thousands of men that died in that manner. It was a common form of execution.

Quote:
It's very preservation very well might represent a miracle of sorts,
especially since it hasn't been explained away.
but it has.

Quote:
all based on eyewitness accounts.
Who are these "eyewitness" accounts?

Quote:
A Church, a nation, and a virtual photo of a dead, crucified Christ,....
Merely wishful thinking. Unless you can show that your Christ was the only man to have been crucified in the history of mankind then you're onto a loser here. There are also 40 other 'Burial Shrouds Of Jesus' in existence.

Quote:
All of this certainly is evidence!
Only to those that close their eyes to logic and reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SavedOne View Post
Josephus
An accepted forgery.

Quote:
Plinius Secundus, Pliny The Younger
Not even born at the alleged time of Jesus and merely repeats stories he had heard about Christians who believe in a "Christ".

Quote:
Suetonius (A.D. 120)
Not even born at the alleged time of Jesus. The passage you are quoting has nothing to do with your Jesus. It refers to someone called Chrestus (not another name for Christus as your Bible apologist site would have you believe) who was active in Rome. Your man-god was never in Rome.

Quote:
Tertullian
Not even born at the alleged time of Jesus and a devout believer. Biased.

Quote:
Thallus,
All of his works are lost.

Quote:
One such writer is Julius Africanus,
Not even born at the alleged time of Jesus and a devout believer. Biased.

Quote:
Phlegon,
Not even born at the alleged time of Jesus. Hearsay.

Quote:
And then there is the Letter of Mara Bar-Serapion
Not even born at the alleged time of Jesus. Hearsay.

So have you got anything written by anyone that was alive at the time of the alleged events?
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Old 05-14-2010, 01:33 PM
 
6,139 posts, read 9,267,054 times
Reputation: 7343
Quote:
Originally Posted by gospelsaves View Post
Good point. I can't really prove anybody in history existed except for old writings I've seen, and testimony of witnesses. I just believe Mr. Columbus existed as well . I guess that is faith!
Good point. I wouldn't have thought of it that way.
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Old 05-15-2010, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Besides the Lord
49 posts, read 56,079 times
Reputation: 18
The bible is proof enough.
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