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Old 05-20-2012, 01:07 AM
 
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I need someone as skilled as Paul was as my agent... the whole world would by my oyster bwahahahaha!

In Jesus' defense - he never met the dude, so we can't hold Jesus responsible for Paul's decision to make a schism so deep it still cuts to this very day among certain circles.
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Old 05-20-2012, 01:09 AM
 
Location: OKC
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Seems like we get a new "Paul" every few generations, claiming a unique vision from God should fundamental change the understanding of religion in his direction.
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Old 05-20-2012, 01:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill View Post
Seems like we get a new "Paul" every few generations, claiming a unique vision from God should fundamental change the understanding of religion in his direction.
I think Jesus would not have cared for Paul too much. I say this alot, but more people should realize it (well, more Christians who are too enamoured with the outwards deeds that would gain them earthly rewards as opposed to the inward deeds that would gain them the rewards of the Kingdom): the religion that the Jewish Jesus was espousing very quickly became the religion ABOUT Jesus Christ. I cannot even claim originality for that statement, as it's been said many times by others.

F.F. Bruce wrote a book called The Hard Sayings of Jesus which illuminated all those pesky statements of Jesus that Christians have been interpreting into insipidity every since he made them. Well worth the read, if only to see how difficult Jesus made the requirements for entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven/God, and how Christians get around those requirements to meet ones that are more convenient for them. If you are a "Christian" - then by definition you are not participating in the same religion that Jesus was.
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Old 05-20-2012, 01:41 AM
 
Location: OKC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
I think Jesus would not have cared for Paul too much. I say this alot, but more people should realize it (well, more Christians who are too enamoured with the outwards deeds that would gain them earthly rewards as opposed to the inward deeds that would gain them the rewards of the Kingdom): the religion that the Jewish Jesus was espousing very quickly became the religion ABOUT Jesus Christ. I cannot even claim originality for that statement, as it's been said many times by others.

F.F. Bruce wrote a book called The Hard Sayings of Jesus which illuminated all those pesky statements of Jesus that Christians have been interpreting into insipidity every since he made them. Well worth the read, if only to see how difficult Jesus made the requirements for entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven/God, and how Christians get around those requirements to meet ones that are more convenient for them. If you are a "Christian" - then by definition you are not participating in the same religion that Jesus was.
That is a very interesting post.
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Old 05-20-2012, 02:48 AM
 
Location: South Africa
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Following from Whoppers post;

The concept of jesus claiming that he did not come to abrogate the law which he (allegedly) said, and the summary of the law, love god and neighbour is a summary of the entire law of moses starting with the 1st and ending with close to the 613th.

Paul's teachings totally negates this and claims jesus was the fulfilment of the law then sells his grace crap.

They do not teach you this as most xians are not aware that loving your neighbour is actually in the mosaic laws.

The royal law

Mark 12:30-31
30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”
Deut. 6:5
5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
Lev. 19:18
18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbour as yourself. I am the Lord.
This is why christians cherry pick the laws that they find easy and even the Jews here have admitted they do not follow all 613.

These laws are no longer relevant mostly b/c we have better more reasonable secular laws.

Jesus did not sanction divorce but understood why moses had allowed it.

There was the putting away of a woman and she would have no means to support herself esp. if she had no living relatives. IOW, if a dude got tired of his wife and wanted to have him some nubile hottie, he simply had to bring up and accusation and he could put her away and proceed to have nookie with wife(n)

Yet what we see, is that christians have no problem with divorce and ministers will marry a divorcee regardless the reason for divorce.
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Old 05-20-2012, 11:54 PM
 
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Thank you, Boxcar, and
Good post, Seeker.

The Jesus of the Gospel of Matthew was 100% for the Mosaic Code and had no intention of doing away with it. Immediately after what is called "The Beatitudes" (Blessed are the Meek, Poor, Pure in heart, etc.), Jesus is said to have said these words (Matthew 5:17-20, NRSV with my mini-commentary):
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets ["the law and the prophets" was a common reference to the first two sections of the Hebrew Bible: Torah and Nevi'im and was also a way of basically saying "following Torah" - which was used to represent the practice of Judaism when it wasn't specifically referring to the first section of the HB - his Jewish audience would have known exactly what he meant];
I have come not to abolish but to fulfill [this latter reference should not be interpreted to foreshadow his death on the cross - at least, it was not in the Gospel writer's mind. He was saying something completely different from the usual apologetic used for this passage].

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away [in other words, NEVER], not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law [Torah] until all is accomplished [the Law is to be kept, and this fact is hammered home by this previous statement concerning the "dots and tittles" - though he was referring to the Hebrew letters that were considered the smallest, such as the yod, for example]. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same [Paul: the Gospel writer is probably directly addressing YOU here lol], will be called least in the kingdom of heaven [In opposition to the other Gospel writers, Matthew preferred "kingdom of heaven" rather than "kingdom of God" because of the Jewish custom of not using God's Name.]; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. [A pretty clear-cut condemnation of those who think that the keeping of Torah is not needed for entrance into the Kingdom. Paul can state otherwise, but one must choose one's "authorities" wisely in such matters hint hint]
For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven [This reference to "the scribes and Pharisees" is not a negative one. It was well known how assiduously these groups strived to keep the Law (whether Written Torah or Oral Torah). Jesus here maintains that even the difficult efforts of these groups were not enough to gain entrance, but that an applicant to the Kingdom would have to keep the Law even MORE than them. This was not a hidden attack against these groups. A justification for this statement can be found immediately afterwards in the section (Matthew 5:21-48) in which Jesus interprets the Law into various degrees of increasing severity (anger the same as murder; lusting after a married woman the same as adultery with her; divorce prohibited; making an oath in any situation is just as bad as swearing by God's name in a legal situation; the law of retribution and lex talionis utterly discarded; and finally commanding people to Love their enemies.]

Paul did not agree, and wrote prior to the composition of the Gospel of Matthew - so perhaps we have here some rhetoric from "Matthew" addressed directly to Paul and his Gentile-converting practices that involved telling them that they only need follow the Noachide Covenant, which "Matthew" strictly opposed. Whether Jesus himself felt this way or whether it was "Matthew", we cannot know for certain. Each Gospel writer had his own vision of Jesus.

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Old 05-21-2012, 12:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LindavG View Post
The Jews are still waiting for a messiah but I have a hard time believing that anyone declaring to be the Jewish messiah would be taken seriously in this day and age.
And that's a good thing. Because if we Jews ever really do agree that some guy is moschiach, then I think the whole world can feel pretty good that we've gotten it right.

Don't you all think it's interesting that no messiah has ever come along to date that everybody can agree on (heck, that even a majority can agree on). One of the key requirements of moschiach in the bible is that ALL people will agree he is the messiah, not just some sub-group of a religion.
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Old 05-21-2012, 03:33 PM
 
Location: kind of North of the middle of nowhere, FL
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I think the Schism as mentioned in Whoppers excellent post refers to the direction that orthodoxy had to take in order to Sell religion. Paul was influencial in getting this whole orthodoxy/heresy garbage.
I had said always in the past that Jesus was no Messiah, that the messiah was a myth, and there is no literal messaih. Looking at the symbolic and allegorical style of writing that was popular at the time, then having read the Gnsotic writings, we see that there was a very strong but small movement (and all early Christian branches were small) that dealt with Jesus example of how to become one's Gown God, different slightly than the noneness of Cuddhism Jesus taught a ONENESS See Gospel of THomas "The kingdom of God is within and without you" meaning universally God is within everyone. BUT That negates the need for a religion ...and that would not have sold the orthodoxy Imagine the idea that Jesus' teaching was empowerment and independence, rather than dependncy and subservience. No need to go to church, and no need for religious dogma. Of course, we really cannot know for certain what Jesus taught or did as all the writings about him are second or third hand accounts, or in the case of Paul, just made up to fit the situation.
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Old 08-29-2013, 11:01 AM
 
Location: hunt valley
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bump for the OP
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Old 08-29-2013, 12:06 PM
 
Location: South Africa
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That was an interesting thread till it was hijacked. It is the issue of textual criticism folk do not understand b/c they never bother to actually take a step back and "criticise" that which was postulated.
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