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I saw the "god fearing" in the Bible as meaning not fearing God but being more in awe of God. I always thought that term was a loose translation for early Christians in order to get their attention.
Please let it be made clear to you that I am, in no way, endorsing this translation.
I just want to bring to your attention the fact that some people, other than us, are beginning to see things differently than you do. We do not know what motivates them, but we are not interested in questioning them.
Maybe YOU can.
If you really think Jehovah's name is important, then it should be held up high for public scrutiny and admiration. Not like the views of these people: Yahweh encyclopedia topics | Reference.com
And consider this:
“Sym′e·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name.” (Acts 15:14)
"A people for his name." How could these people, ONE international people, be definitely identified if they did not bear his name?
And this:
“For God is not unrighteous so as to forget YOUR work and the love YOU showed for his name, in that YOU have ministered to the holy ones and continue ministering.” (Hebrews 6:10)
Which group today shows greater love for Jehovah's name?
Do you?
Your response will determine how far I will go to refute your statements above.
Now - show me what name was in the original text and how the translation "errors" affect the understanding of the Scriptures.
You haven't done it yet.
Wilson.
I assure you I have eaten this can of worms many times before, and with relish. I am not interested in hearing any refutations from you - as they will be the same tired old JW excuses in place of competent translation - and there are no refutations to what I posted. Consult any competent Greek version of the New Testament.
My points were clear, concise and to the point. There is no need for me to repeat myself. Read it again, if you must, and then consult your Kingdom Interlinear. If you want to start a thread about the merits of the New World Translation - by all means, but I never meant this to detract from the thread's actual topic. IF your purpose is to derail the thread with such a tactic, I'm not sure how much that would be appreciated. I have given you the example you requested -just one example. That is all. Nothing to discuss beyond that, really.
From a believers standpoint, the "fear of the Lord" refers to reverence and awe. Hebrews 12:28
That's how I'm trying to see it.
Yet, I've been raised with plenty of fear & shame - which is taught in some religions & may be a reason why it is estimated that the majority of mental illness cases are rooted in religious doctrine interpretations. It's important to remember biblical canon history... & how many political leaders used religion & scriptures to keep people submissive or fearful of those in power.
Other scriptures:
"God is love."
"Perfect love casteth out fear."
Isn't fear counter to faith?
God is love & faith is inseparably connected to love.
So, "god-fearing" seems contradictory.
Wilson-Cole: Do you REALLY want to be shown translational errors?
Let us view the New World Translation of the New Testament - since you are familiar with it. I hope you have your Interlinear available, since you will need to verify that what I am saying is true.
The second mistake in trying to come up with the true vocalization of YHWH was when it was misunderstood that the German "j" is pronounced as our English and Hebrew "y". This also built upon the Greek model in which we have many names that start with a Hebrew "y" being spelled (and pronounced) as an English "j": Yaakov becomes Jacob, Yeshuah becomes Joshua. A simple observation that a word such as Halleluiah preserves the first syllable of the divine Name ("Yah") is telling. The "i" is the Greek practice, seen in the rendering of Jesus as Iesus. Anyways, this misunderstanding that there is NO "j" sound in Hebrew, led to a perversion of the divine name YHWH (which has a "y" and not a non-existent "j"), and once the vowels of Adonai were added - we ended up with the highly innacurate "Jehovah".
So, there - we now have an example (just one!) of how a translation can alter words for its own theological purpose. But don't just take my word for it - check out your Kingdom Interlinear! It's definately more obvious once you see it with your own eyes. The fact remains, whatever the 1st Century apostles personal preference, whoever wrote the New Testament (Divinely inspired?) preferred Ο Κύριος or Ο Θεός and you will not find YHWH in their at all. Not once. An accurate translation will reproduce these choices, whether they agree with them or not. A dishonest translation will do the opposite.
You seem to be saying that a mistranslation or corruption of some sort has led to a misunderstanding of the scriptures that leads JWs astray. That we are wrong to insist on the use of the Divine name when that is clearly the will of Jehovah.
In taking this view, you leave yourself open to a lot of questions about the Hebrew language and I must wonder how you will deal with them.
For instance:
In Hebrew:
Jeremiah’s name is YIRMIAH. Abraham’s name is AVHAMON. Judah’s name is YAHUDAH. Isaiah’s name is YESAYAHU. Zedekiah’s name is SIDQIVVAHU, John is and Sarah’s name is SARAVAH.
Since there were/are no vowels in Hebrew, the pronunciation of those names were determined by common usage, as recognized by the community using the language.
Here’s your problem:
You seem to have no difficulty pronouncing those names, even though their particular vowel sounds were/are unknown. But when it comes to YHWH - huge difficulty. Why?
How would you pronounce the name of Jesus using only the Hebrew letters YHHSH? Would it not be by common usage in the language we speak?
Why would anyone not want to use the name of the true God? It is a trumped-up excuse not to use Jehovah’s name!
If you saying that Jehovah does NOT want his name used and glorified, you are sadly mistaken. Here, Jehovah complains about it:
“They are thinking of making my people FORGET MY NAME by means of their dreams that they keep relating each one to the other, just as their fathers forgot my name by means of Ba'al.” (Jeremiah 23:27)
From this text, the obscuring of his name clearly offends Jehovah. Is that what you're trying to get us to do?
“But, in fact, for this cause I have kept you in existence, for the sake of showing you my power and in order to have my name declared in all the earth. ” (Exodus 9:16-17)
When did that objective of Jehovah cease?
“Look! YOUR house is abandoned to YOU. I tell YOU, YOU will by no means see me until YOU say, ‘Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah’s name. ’”” (Luke 13:35)
“I have come in the name of my Father, but YOU do not receive me; if someone else arrived in his own name, YOU would receive that one.” (John 5:43)
“Jesus answered them: “I told YOU, and yet YOU do not believe. The works that I am doing in the name of my Father, these bear witness about me. But YOU do not believe, because YOU are none of my sheep.” (John 10:25-26)
What could that name possibly be?
“Nevertheless, this is why I have come to this hour. Father, glorify your name.” Therefore a voice came out of heaven: “I both glorified [it] and will glorify [it] again.”” (John 12:27-28)
How will Jehovah do that in obscurity?
“I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.” (John 17:6)
“For God is not unrighteous so as to forget YOUR work and the love YOU showed for his name, in that YOU have ministered to the holy ones and continue ministering.” (Hebrews 6:10)
Clearly, Paul is addressing servants of Jehovah for we are the only ones that love his name and proudly proclaim it abroad.
Do you love Jehovah's name?
Are you willing to bear it proudly regardless of animosity that accompany it?
If not, how will he remember "your work?" How will you recieve his reward?
Do you love Jehovah's name?
Are you willing to bear it proudly regardless of animosity that accompany it?
If not, how will he remember "your work?" How will you recieve his reward?
If there really is a God hiding "up" there, as some would have us blindly believe... (despite any objective supporting evidence, and against all logical thought, the process of which He would have endowed in some of us...)
...then He'll for certain "remember" exactly what we all did, in endlessly great detail. Each and every sub-atomic particle interaction, I'm assured by my Born Again Christian friend.
I'll still go with this guy's polite and thoughtful answers. And I'd love to hear your response to his ideas wilson, not necessarily your reactions to me. That obviates your biases against me as well.
Wilson - this is not the thread to discuss your quasi-Hebrew knowledge.
Do you really believe that this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsoncole
In Hebrew:
Jeremiah’s name is YIRMIAH. Abraham’s name is AVHAMON. Judah’s name is YAHUDAH. Isaiah’s name is YESAYAHU. Zedekiah’s name is SIDQIVVAHU, John is and Sarah’s name is SARAVAH.
is accurate? Because it's not....
How do I know? Because I can check my Hebrew versions of the "Old Testament". "Saravah"? "Yahudah"? "Sidqivvahu"? "Avhamon"? Wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong. Even a wikipedia search will give the Hebrew for the names, if one is so inclined to go that route. It is obvious that you cannot read Hebrew, not even on an elementary level. That's fine - but realize that you are incorrect, especially when you use a "v" for a "y". Look at these names below - how many consonants do you see in the name "Sarah", for example? 3. Not 4. There is no "v". Hebrew doesn't even have the letter "v", except as the soft pronounciation of the letter "b".
Sarah = שָׂרָה
Judah = יְהוּדָה
Zedekiah = צִדְקִיָּהוּ
Read my post again.
1. "Jehovah" is wrong. "Yahweh" (while not certain) is more accurate than "Jehovah" - just look at the theophoric elements in some of the names you listed: "Yahu", "Yah", etc.
2. "Yahweh" in the OT = correct. "Yahweh" in the NT = wrong.
And with that - I'm finished. You have been corrected, now take your medicine. Let's get back to "The Fear of Yahweh" and the thread topic. I should have known better - you take every chance you get to proselytize.
That's how I'm trying to see it.
Yet, I've been raised with plenty of fear & shame - which is taught in some religions & may be a reason why it is estimated that the majority of mental illness cases are rooted in religious doctrine interpretations. It's important to remember biblical canon history... & how many political leaders used religion & scriptures to keep people submissive or fearful of those in power.
Other scriptures:
"God is love."
"Perfect love casteth out fear."
Isn't fear counter to faith?
God is love & faith is inseparably connected to love. So, "god-fearing" seems contradictory.
Not at all! There is no reason a believer should be fearful. What do we have to fear? Our future is secure in Christ. Romans 8:38-39
Wilson - this is not the thread to discuss your quasi-Hebrew knowledge.
Do you really believe that this:
is accurate? Because it's not....
How do I know? Because I can check my Hebrew versions of the "Old Testament". "Saravah"? "Yahudah"? "Sidqivvahu"? "Avhamon"? Wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong. Even a wikipedia search will give the Hebrew for the names, if one is so inclined to go that route. It is obvious that you cannot read Hebrew, not even on an elementary level. That's fine - but realize that you are incorrect, especially when you use a "v" for a "y". Look at these names below - how many consonants do you see in the name "Sarah", for example? 3. Not 4. There is no "v". Hebrew doesn't even have the letter "v", except as the soft pronounciation of the letter "b".
Sarah = שָׂרָה
Judah = יְהוּדָה
Zedekiah = צִדְקִיָּהוּ
Read my post again.
1. "Jehovah" is wrong. "Yahweh" (while not certain) is more accurate than "Jehovah" - just look at the theophoric elements in some of the names you listed: "Yahu", "Yah", etc.
2. "Yahweh" in the OT = correct. "Yahweh" in the NT = wrong.
And with that - I'm finished. You have been corrected, now take your medicine. Let's get back to "The Fear of Yahweh" and the thread topic. I should have known better - you take every chance you get to proselytize.
You don't get it at all!
Regardless of the Hebrew names you choose, the principle remains unchanged:
"Since there were/are no vowels in Hebrew, the pronunciation of those names were determined by common usage, as recognized by the community using the language.
Here’s your problem:
You seem to have no difficulty pronouncing those names (whichever Hebrew names you choose), even though their particular vowel sounds were/are unknown. But when it comes to YHWH - huge difficulty. Why?
Why would anyone not want to use the name of the true God? It is a trumped-up excuse not to use Jehovah’s name!
If you saying that Jehovah does NOT want his name used and glorified, you are sadly mistaken. Here, Jehovah complains about it:
“They are thinking of making my people FORGET MY NAME by means of their dreams that they keep relating each one to the other, just as their fathers forgot my name by means of Ba'al.” (Jeremiah 23:27)
From this text, the obscuring of his name clearly offends Jehovah. Is that what you're trying to get us to do?"
Now - answer this question if you can:
Jesus is called "Haysus" by Spanish-speaking peoples. Are they wrong?
How would you pronounce the name of Jesus using only the Hebrew letters YHHSH? Would it not be by common usage in the language we speak?
You do well to run along.
But I sure would like to hear you call on YHHSH!
And we ARE on topic because we are talking about YHWH.
If there really is a God hiding "up" there, as some would have us blindly believe... (despite any objective supporting evidence, and against all logical thought, the process of which He would have endowed in some of us...)
...then He'll for certain "remember" exactly what we all did, in endlessly great detail. Each and every sub-atomic particle interaction, I'm assured by my Born Again Christian friend.
Cumulative testimony from atheists describe God as Omnipotent, omniscient, loving, hateful, kind, cruel, vengeful, forgiving, etc, etc.
You are right about one thing:
The God you describe does not exist. I wonder where you got those false impressions. Christendom, perhaps?
Consider:
If God is omnipotent, yet unable to control what information he should and could retain, how could he be rightly described as omnipotent?
.
Would the term not be more appropriate if he had perfect control?
.
For instance, when he says:
“For I shall forgive their error, and their sin I shall remember no more. ” ” (Jeremiah 31:34)
.
“. . .For I shall be merciful to their unrighteous deeds, and I shall by no means call their sins to mind anymore.’”” (Hebrews 8:12)
would it not mean that no forgiveness takes place because he cannot forget the sins of men?
He says that some people he will forget:
“My people will certainly be silenced, because there is no knowledge. Because the knowledge is what you yourself have rejected, I shall also reject you from serving as a priest to me; and [because] you keep forgetting the law of your God, I shall forget your sons, even I.” (Hosea 4:6)
Quote:
I'll still go with this guy's polite and thoughtful answers. And I'd love to hear your response to his ideas wilson, not necessarily your reactions to me. That obviates your biases against me as well.
Please? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqz0plz6DEs&feature=youtu.be
The God this guy describes does not exist either. People who die are no longer in existence although he has the ability to remember and resurrect whomever he chooses.
.
When a person dies, this is what happens:
“For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten……..All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She'ol, (the grave) the place to which you are going.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)
.
After death, there is a period of non-existence and, if one qualifies, this is what happens: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HodoOO3txgQ&feature=email
This information is supported by Scripture that can be investigated by the viewer throughout.
_________________________________________
You don't get it at all!
Regardless of the Hebrew names you choose, the principle remains unchanged:
"Since there were/are no vowels in Hebrew, the pronunciation of those names were determined by common usage, as recognized by the community using the language.
Here’s your problem:
You seem to have no difficulty pronouncing those names (whichever Hebrew names you choose), even though their particular vowel sounds were/are unknown. But when it comes to YHWH - huge difficulty. Why?
Why would anyone not want to use the name of the true God? It is a trumped-up excuse not to use Jehovah’s name!
If you saying that Jehovah does NOT want his name used and glorified, you are sadly mistaken. Here, Jehovah complains about it:
“They are thinking of making my people FORGET MY NAME by means of their dreams that they keep relating each one to the other, just as their fathers forgot my name by means of Ba'al.” (Jeremiah 23:27)
From this text, the obscuring of his name clearly offends Jehovah. Is that what you're trying to get us to do?"
Now - answer this question if you can:
Jesus is called "Haysus" by Spanish-speaking peoples. Are they wrong?
How would you pronounce the name of Jesus using only the Hebrew letters YHHSH? Would it not be by common usage in the language we speak?
You do well to run along.
But I sure would like to hear you call on YHHSH!
And we ARE on topic because we are talking about YHWH.
Wilson.
Wilson - I'm in favor of using the name of God for those who worship him, or in translations of the Old Testament. I agree with you here 100%. The choice of the older form, Jehovah, is incorrect, however. Yahweh has been the standard vocalization of the name for at least a hundred years, now.
If you look at some translations, they do use the name of God (ASV, JB, NJB, SB, etc). Biblical scholarship has long used the name of God.
You're absolutely correct that, within the Bible, Yahweh does declare that he wants his name to be known - why wouldn't he? Gods have names, and it's pretty common for their name to be used - otherwise, how would one know who one is worshipping? But, as you know - the superstition arose that forbade the pronounciation of Yahweh's name, and by the time of Jesus and the 1st Century followers - the practice of pronouncing the Name had vanished. This is reflected in the New Testament and in the words of Jesus on the cross: Yahweh never appears there.
The point, though - and I think you've missed it - is that there is no "j" or "v" (technically) in Biblical Hebrew. "Jehovah" is just plain wrong. It's an older convention that used the vowel points for "Lord" with the Hebrew consonants, and an incorrect usage of "j" for "y", and the modern pronounciation of "v" for biblical Hebrew's "w". As I said - check your Insight Into the Scriptures book - it will explain it. "Yahweh" is much more accurate. The only "v" that should be in Biblical Hebrew is the soft pronounciation of "b" (example: Abraham is technically pronounced Avraham). As for "j" - there is no "j" (example: Jacob is technically Yaakob, with the "b" being pronounced as a "v", since it is soft - so it would be pronounced Yaakov; the important thing is that the "j" is actually a "y").
Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, with even a slight awareness of how Hebrew worked will use the term "Jehovah". They will use "Yahweh" or something similar. But don't take my word for it - look it up. It's pretty old news by now.
It's a shame that it's not used in regular worship by the vast majority of people, and I agree with you on that. But I realize how much of a nightmare it would be for an organization to change their name from Jehovah's Witnesses to Yahweh's Witnesses. Too bad - for they seem to feel the name is important. Too bad they are stuck on an older, incorrect form of the name. They might as well just say "LORD" with everyone else, if they can't bother to get it right.
And as for the "there were no vowels in Hebrew and thus they were determined by common usage" - that is just plain wrong. The vowels existed (how could one have a language) - they just didn't write them down at first. This changed pretty quickly with the matres lectionis, and even if it hadn't - comparative linguistics serves it's purpose here. The lack of vowels in the written script does not mean you can just make up anything you want for a word.
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Some do fear their god, others deny Him entirely.
