U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 08-18-2012, 03:52 AM
 
Location: South Wales, Yes, I'm, back!
16,049 posts, read 8,092,663 times
Reputation: 2672

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
Actually, Nozz, aren't there psych studies which show the beatific feeling of contact with 'God' are in fact, just a similar chemical reaction in the brain?
Correct. Some time ago I had an exchange with one of our regular posters about this sort of 'what science does not explain' aspect and I think I confused the issue by saying that I thought that science might eventually be able to explain where a lot of this stuff comes from. The effect of pressure on the parietal lobes during prayer and the 'God - spot' debate has suggested that religious experience is simply a physical effect, misinterpreted by people who only got carried away by the sensation.

This (and the circumstantial evidence of God -experiences through drug - use and the fact that consciousness is affected by brain - damage and cannot be something 'apart' from the mind) is ignored by believers who seem to be moving the argument along - just as in the evolution debate and, losing ground on the 'supernatural effect' level retreat to a physical effect utilized by the supernatural. The closing gap for god argument.

I am fairly convinced, in fact, that a lot of the emotions that we tend to ...well rather take for granted and, if we ever think where they came from, tend to swallow the 'God - implanted' explanation, far too readily...will eventually be studied and understood in a scientifically - demonstrated way as being biological responses and to do with the evolution of a survival trait.

This may horrify some who dearly love their illusions (not to say delusions) about this stuff and see it as all part of what is 'good' in humans and thus Evil Darwinist science is trying to destroy everything worthwhile about humanity and turn us all into soulless pointy -eared robots, coldly exterminating anyone deemed by the Atheist professors as not fit to live.

All part of the delusion.

Last edited by AREQUIPA; 08-18-2012 at 03:54 AM.. Reason: no names...no infringements

 
Old 08-20-2012, 07:05 AM
 
4,823 posts, read 3,643,625 times
Reputation: 1654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
Evidence of love and proof that love exists are not the same thing. Evidence for God's existance and proof of His existance are also not the same thing. So either a person accepts one or the other. But I find it contradictory when a person changes their mind to suit themselves.
Sure, I agree that there is evidence for love and no evidence for gods. So why did you say that science couldn't demonstrate love if you admit there can be evidence for it?
 
Old 08-21-2012, 03:54 AM
 
Location: Athens, Greece
588 posts, read 294,682 times
Reputation: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
If the Jewish revolt against Rome had succeeded, and let's say Rome decided to leave it as an independent kingdom, then there would be no Christianity or new Testament and I suspect that we would have had a secular worldview by the seventeenth century. Or maybe Buddhism would have become the dominant religion.
Here we go again!
English speaking people reading the New Testament in English and believing it was translated from Hebrew or Aramaic.
The New Testament is Greek! GREEK!!
Written by Greek speaking story tellers who placed the setting of their story in Judea.

Stop blaming Jews for Christianity!
You were taught that you got your civilization from the Greeks without having been told that the Greeks got theirs from the East (Politics and art excluded) and you were told that you got your religion from the East without having been told that it was a poisonous gift from the so-called Greeks (Plato & Co.).
 
Old 08-21-2012, 04:13 AM
 
434 posts, read 135,654 times
Reputation: 90
I think Arequipa is pondering on the idea that Christianity came about because the Hebrews were the losers for perhaps the first major time in their history, and the soft philosophy of non-resistance and love of ones' enemies was a kind of attempt at calming the psyche of a people used to winning victories because God was on their side. If you are no longer the victors, well, where is God?

The weak will inherit while the strong will be thrown down, the rich cannot enter Heaven, the foolish will be wise and the wise, foolish.. it's basically got at it's core a lot of 'loser philosophy', or 'underdog' if you prefer. A balm worked by promising a future time where ones' just rewards will come and ones' enemies will get their just deserts, while such things are all conspicuously totally absent in ones' present situation. The entirety of Revelations was obviously like this.

Had the Jews been successful in throwing off Rome at that time, this schism might not have been necessary, or even born.
 
Old 08-21-2012, 06:01 AM
 
Location: Athens, Greece
588 posts, read 294,682 times
Reputation: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
I think Arequipa is pondering on the idea that Christianity came about because the Hebrews were the losers for perhaps the first major time in their history, and the soft philosophy of non-resistance and love of ones' enemies was a kind of attempt at calming the psyche of a people used to winning victories because God was on their side.

I think Arequipa knows better than that but he is suffering from the Atheist’s syndrome: aversion to an imaginary Judeochristianity!!

The soft philosophy of non-resistance and obedience to the lords was taught by Socrates who chose to stay and die (authorizing at the same time the right of the state to kill its subjects).

One way or the other, my friend Arequipa, you’ll be under Christian philosophy ruling. That freak, Plato, is still revered by your beloved academia.
 
Old 08-21-2012, 06:08 AM
 
434 posts, read 135,654 times
Reputation: 90
Plato and Socrates predate Christianity. Your pronouncements about them are.. odd, to say the least. Clearly cart before the horse.
 
Old 08-21-2012, 08:34 AM
 
Location: South Wales, Yes, I'm, back!
16,049 posts, read 8,092,663 times
Reputation: 2672
Quote:
Originally Posted by dtango View Post
Here we go again!
English speaking people reading the New Testament in English and believing it was translated from Hebrew or Aramaic.
The New Testament is Greek! GREEK!!
Written by Greek speaking story tellers who placed the setting of their story in Judea.

Stop blaming Jews for Christianity!
You were taught that you got your civilization from the Greeks without having been told that the Greeks got theirs from the East (Politics and art excluded) and you were told that you got your religion from the East without having been told that it was a poisonous gift from the so-called Greeks (Plato & Co.).
dtango, again you show you failure to understand the point being made. Perhaps because it wasn't explained. I don't need you to tell me that the Gospels were written in Greek. The Gospels were written in Greek because Paul took the disciples' messianic views and passed them on to his Greek converts in a gentile - friendly form. I in NO WAY blame the Jews for Christianity...except in inventing Judaism in the first place, but then as Nagg said to Hamm 'I didn't know.'

'What didn't you know?'

'That it'd be you.'

I suspect that, without the Jewish war, Jesus' followers and indeed Pharisees who weren't would have continued to discredit Paul's teachings and Christianity other than a Jewish variety which would require a stiffer observance of the law than the usual, would not have taken hold as it did. (Though it might - Mithraism and Isis worship did - and Christianity had a LOT of appeal to the socially excluded of Rome) But the Jewish war removed the Hydra heads of the Nazorean church in one go and Gentile Christianity could flourish without anyone to point to the tomb: 'He's still in there!'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtango View Post
I think Arequipa knows better than that but he is suffering from the Atheist’s syndrome: aversion to an imaginary Judeochristianity!!

The soft philosophy of non-resistance and obedience to the lords was taught by Socrates who chose to stay and die (authorizing at the same time the right of the state to kill its subjects).

One way or the other, my friend Arequipa, you’ll be under Christian philosophy ruling. That freak, Plato, is still revered by your beloved academia.
You further compound you misapprehension of what I am suggesting with a misapprehension of what I think. I haven't any aversion to a JudeoChristianity, real or imagined. In some ways I feel a sort of sorrow as I read of the futile 4th century appeals of the remaining Nazoreans to choose their own Bishops rather than have them imposed by Christian Rome or Constantinople, rather with the same sad interest that I read of the remaining scale - armoured Roman militia trying to oppose the increase of Pagan germanics with the help of the crosses on their shoulders.

No, my views of Christianity as incoherent and unsound are no more personal than my similar exposure of the woeful inaccuracy of your comments.

Last edited by AREQUIPA; 08-21-2012 at 08:52 AM..
 
Old 08-21-2012, 02:03 PM
 
Location: Athens, Greece
588 posts, read 294,682 times
Reputation: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
The Gospels were written in Greek because Paul took the disciples' messianic views and passed them on to his Greek converts in a gentile - friendly form. I in NO WAY blame the Jews for Christianity...except in inventing Judaism in the first place,..

I see! You believe that disciples –and Jesus, of course- did exist but that Judaism was invented.

So, the Old Testament is a fairy tale but the New Testament is a testimony!!

Are you aware of any piece of evidence supporting the theory that the first Christians were Jewish?
And what is wrong with Judaism? Telling the truth, perhaps?

You know that Hellenism and Judaism are not friendly cultures. Judaism loves theocracy while Hellenism hates it. Yet, the Greek state abolished the clergy but continued to use and exploit the gods. Shame! Should have killed the gods too. In Judaism, however, they worship a God they do not mind to describe as a wicked God and that I admire and respect.

So, tell me what it is you do not like in Judaism.
 
Old 08-21-2012, 07:45 PM
 
Location: South Wales, Yes, I'm, back!
16,049 posts, read 8,092,663 times
Reputation: 2672
Quote:
Originally Posted by dtango View Post
I see! You believe that disciples –and Jesus, of course- did exist but that Judaism was invented.

So, the Old Testament is a fairy tale but the New Testament is a testimony!!

Are you aware of any piece of evidence supporting the theory that the first Christians were Jewish?
And what is wrong with Judaism? Telling the truth, perhaps?

You know that Hellenism and Judaism are not friendly cultures. Judaism loves theocracy while Hellenism hates it. Yet, the Greek state abolished the clergy but continued to use and exploit the gods. Shame! Should have killed the gods too. In Judaism, however, they worship a God they do not mind to describe as a wicked God and that I admire and respect.

So, tell me what it is you do not like in Judaism.
I will reply as I think it does relate to topic.

I actually do not think the NT is testimony but it a fairy tale - more so than the old Testament. They are both based on some actual events. The OT because the history of the Jewish peoples is pretty well attested in various reliable ways - though actually less of it looking correct. Genesis has long gone and the exodus with it, pretty recently on these very boards. And now even the conquest story and supposed empires of David and Solomon look doubtful. The history looks like a tall story and the God - claims a fairy tale.

The NT, in my take is almost all fantasy. The reason I think there are disciples is that I cannot believe that the Pauline letters were forgeries by Marcion (though I am willing to be convinced) and if Paul was real, then he must have got his ideas from the apostles he talks about (as his claims that he got it from a visit to Jesus in the third Heaven I dismiss as a fairy tale as much as the epic of Gilgamesh). If the apostles were real, then they must have been disciples of a real person -as in fact attested in the only historical source I find persuasive. Tacitus reports the claim that the founder of Christianity was executed by Pilate.

So he was, and I concluded that before I even gave credence to Tacitus, because I do not believe that the apostles inventing a revered leader would have him crucified. However, I also find compelling evidence that this story was totally rewritten by Christians to show Jesus as a divine being and anti Jewish. A fantasy as much as the Exodus and conquest of Caanan in the OT.

Now you know and don't need to guess.
 
Old 08-22-2012, 01:16 PM
 
707 posts, read 277,479 times
Reputation: 267
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCfromNC View Post
Sure, I agree that there is evidence for love and no evidence for gods. So why did you say that science couldn't demonstrate love if you admit there can be evidence for it?
I think you missed what I said. Evidence is not proof. Both love and God have no physical proof. So logically you either accept evidence for their existance or not.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $84,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:07 PM.

© 2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top