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Old 02-05-2012, 11:47 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
12,755 posts, read 8,603,436 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
Again, where you get your morals is your business, I hold no intrest in telling others where to get their morals. I think that you should think for yourself. What about that is not clear to you?

Again, I think you should get your morals from where you think best, not me. I get my morals from where I think best, and never ask others where they think I should gather how to shape my conscious efforts.
Clearly you believe that getting one's morals from religion is better.

 
Old 02-05-2012, 11:48 PM
 
Location: Metromess
11,798 posts, read 20,274,520 times
Reputation: 4962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
Oh yes, nothing and nobody has killed more humans than God. The lives were his to take;

And hes going to take a whole lot more!
That isn't exactly a ringing endorsement for your "loving" God. I don't agree that "the lives were his to take", but even if they were, why would He do so? Much suffering, by people of differnt religions and the non-religious as well.

The threat at the end sums it all up rather well. Thanks but no thanks.
 
Old 02-06-2012, 03:43 AM
 
7,811 posts, read 4,584,836 times
Reputation: 2962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
It was religion that created mathmatics; Galileo, Pascal and Leibnitz all called mathmatics " The Speech of God." And Pythagoras of Greece considered math " A theology of the divine." A search for God created mathmatics.
Sorry for the lateness of my reply. Your inability to use the quote function correctly made me actually miss your reply until just now.

Again however you make the same error here above. You are finding cases of people doing science in parallel to their religion and claiming that there is some link between them. There is not. They do their science DESPITE their religion, not because of it or using it.

Correlation is not the same as causation. Correlating religion and science in one person does not link the two. Nothing in maths requires, is based on, or has anything to do with the concept of a god or it's existence. LaPlace put that to bed with his comment that we simply have no need of the hypothesis.

They did their maths, and it was great stuff, but they had to twist it and change it and speak about it in such ways as to make it fit their religion. As I said Newton is the best example of this, throwing his hands up at a problem and simply declaring "God makes periodic adjustments". He did not do his science using religion to help him. He did it despite his religion, and in the end gave up and just slotted religion into the gaps.
 
Old 02-06-2012, 06:26 AM
 
Location: Warren, Michigan
5,298 posts, read 3,599,054 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by calipoppy View Post
I actually hope that atheists have wonderful, fulfilling lives that are blissful and peaceful. If they are content with being non-believers, then that is their right. However, it is important that the people with whom I surround myself are spiritual and accountable to a higher power.

I do not care for the bitterness, cynicism and pessimism that usually goes along with the atheists that I have encountered. I do not wish to have people around me who are not spiritual and who take every opportunity to bash my Christian beliefs and faith in God. Or those who attempt to remove any and every reference to God or Jesus Christ from every aspect of American society. There is an inherent evil in the "crusades" that many atheists undertake in this country to banish every speck of symbolism of religion (usually its anti-Christian) even the point of attempting to wipe away history.

One would wonder how evil it would have been if Jesus behaved and thought simular to you, and didnot want to surround himself with unbelieving sinners; how many lives would have been lost or kept in darkness. But please don't get me wrong, I know your not like Jesus was, thats asking a bit much. Yet if a believer allows a " Root of Bitterness" toward any other group to set into their consciousness, satan can accomplish a lot with that root. Make it grow to the point that your just as sinister in ways, as the group you dispise. We can know how far bitterness has taken its root within us, by what comes out of us; your own words and how you espress them will convict you.

Their is an inherant evil in self righteousness also. The very thing you dislike in others, bitterness, has now taken root within you. The biblical principle is not to return evil with evil, bitterness with bitterness;

And not to act like a blind righteous person to blind unbelievers and treat them as if they are radioactive and can infect you by just standing next to them. I am certainly glad that Jesus didnot behave in such an elitist manner.
 
Old 02-06-2012, 06:29 AM
 
Location: Warren, Michigan
5,298 posts, read 3,599,054 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by catman View Post
That isn't exactly a ringing endorsement for your "loving" God. I don't agree that "the lives were his to take", but even if they were, why would He do so? Much suffering, by people of differnt religions and the non-religious as well.

The threat at the end sums it all up rather well. Thanks but no thanks.

God takes human lives for several reasons; population control; their alloted time is up; and to place them in storage for the next life he will give them. And absolutely none of those reasons are evil.
 
Old 02-06-2012, 06:31 AM
 
Location: Warren, Michigan
5,298 posts, read 3,599,054 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Sorry for the lateness of my reply. Your inability to use the quote function correctly made me actually miss your reply until just now.

Again however you make the same error here above. You are finding cases of people doing science in parallel to their religion and claiming that there is some link between them. There is not. They do their science DESPITE their religion, not because of it or using it.

Correlation is not the same as causation. Correlating religion and science in one person does not link the two. Nothing in maths requires, is based on, or has anything to do with the concept of a god or it's existence. LaPlace put that to bed with his comment that we simply have no need of the hypothesis.

They did their maths, and it was great stuff, but they had to twist it and change it and speak about it in such ways as to make it fit their religion. As I said Newton is the best example of this, throwing his hands up at a problem and simply declaring "God makes periodic adjustments". He did not do his science using religion to help him. He did it despite his religion, and in the end gave up and just slotted religion into the gaps.

You are simply behind in your understanding and refuse to see history. Scientist " Now" do their science despite of their religion, but before 1700, they did it because of their religion.
 
Old 02-06-2012, 06:46 AM
 
7,811 posts, read 4,584,836 times
Reputation: 2962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
You are simply behind in your understanding and refuse to see history. Scientist " Now" do their science despite of their religion, but before 1700, they did it because of their religion.
I am afraid throw away comments like "you are behind on your understanding" say nothing. I have explained my position, with references, examples and explanations. You have just.... restated your position again. Saying it over and over does not make it true.

I am more than agog to see a model of how you think mathematics has anything to do with religion and whats maths are god based etc. Again simply listing people who did maths and were also religious does not cut it.
 
Old 02-06-2012, 07:02 AM
 
Location: Warren, Michigan
5,298 posts, read 3,599,054 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
I am afraid throw away comments like "you are behind on your understanding" say nothing. I have explained my position, with references, examples and explanations. You have just.... restated your position again. Saying it over and over does not make it true.

I am more than agog to see a model of how you think mathematics has anything to do with religion and whats maths are god based etc. Again simply listing people who did maths and were also religious does not cut it.

Mathmatics was born from astrology, which was born from religion. Religion was a search for the divine , thats the orginal reason why men began to search the stars, thus was born astrology. A pilgrimage into the unknown, in order to find and understand God! Some time later when Pythagoras in Greece is seeking the lost invariants of life in a theology of " Divine numbers and their relationships", that began the beginning of the science of mathmatics. This is the orgin of the study, and its why Galileo called mathmatics " The Speech of God." As did Pascal and Leibnitz.

Wether you accept this or not, it is the real historical model of the orgin of math. And it took its birth in religion, or a search for the divine.
 
Old 02-06-2012, 07:16 AM
 
7,811 posts, read 4,584,836 times
Reputation: 2962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
Mathmatics was born from astrology
Where did you get this idea from?

And you are now back to just listing people who did maths and were also religious. I already explained why this does not cut it.

Also still waiting for a model or explanation of what maths has to do with god, or what part of maths is directly informed by god or requires that assumption.
 
Old 02-06-2012, 07:31 AM
 
Location: Warren, Michigan
5,298 posts, read 3,599,054 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Where did you get this idea from?

And you are now back to just listing people who did maths and were also religious. I already explained why this does not cut it.

Also still waiting for a model or explanation of what maths has to do with god, or what part of maths is directly informed by god or requires that assumption.

If my explinations " Don't cut it", why are you still asking for more? What, do you think if you keep asking and I keep giving you the same answers, that somehow there going to " Get Through?"

My ideas come from my study and my own consciousness, simular to where your ideas come from. I already gave you the model, you just do not see it; its not something you can get to right now. It is useless for you to wait for what has already been given.
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