What would a world entirely populated by Atheist be like? (divorce, religious leader)

[Trimac20]

Originally Posted by LindavG

Is Christianity anything other than a personality cult around Jesus Christ?

If Christians read their Bible properly, they too would be communist (and there are in fact Christian communists) as that is clearly what the Bible preaches. I mentioned the exact passages in another thread but I can re-post them if you want to. There is nothing about atheism that leads to communism or personality cults. Atheism is simply a non-belief in god(s), that's it.

There are plenty of societies in the world that are majoritarily atheist/agnostic and do not have a personality cult of any kind. Think of Scandinavia, Estonia, France, the Netherlands, Czech Republic, etc.

Anyway, North Korea is in no way an atheist state, whether real or nominal.

I've thought about this. There are elements of this, you would think, but it boils down to whether Jesus was really God. If he was, the personality cult is justified. If not, than he's not the first or last to claim to be God. That there were Christ-like myths before him doesn't necessarily disprove his deity...but digressing a bit.

Yes I agree Christ's original message seemed quite socialistic.

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by Trimac20

North Korea is a state run by atheists. It's a real godless utopia...

False. In fact it's parallels with Christianity could not be more clear. The have a Leader Father who is dead but is still the eternal leader, his son who was equally divine and eternal. They are just one short of a trinity.

They then go on to make magical claims of miracles such as the idea that all the birds sang in korean on the day of the Father Leaders Birth. The days and nights of the citizens of that country are, like religion and "heaven", made up of never ending eternal praise and love for the Father Leader.

If you think anything about that country is atheistic or secular then you understand neither of those words at any level. They have just replaced one form of religion with another. The only difference is that with their religion you can die to escape the hell of north korea. In most of the worlds religions the dictator is only starting with you at that point.

I have heard anecdotal stories of people who did manage to escape and were picked up by Christian Care workers who, of course, proceeded to try and convert them to Christianity. As soon as they heard of an eternal loving father who gave the people his eternal loving son a horror likely dawned on them thinking "Hang on, isn't this what we just got AWAY from??".

[Trimac20]

Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo

False. In fact it's parallels with Christianity could not be more clear. The have a Leader Father who is dead but is still the eternal leader, his son who was equally divine and eternal. They are just one short of a trinity.

They then go on to make magical claims of miracles such as the idea that all the birds sang in korean on the day of the Father Leaders Birth. The days and nights of the citizens of that country are, like religion and "heaven", made up of never ending eternal praise and love for the Father Leader.

If you think anything about that country is atheistic or secular then you understand neither of those words at any level. They have just replaced one form of religion with another. The only difference is that with their religion you can die to escape the hell of north korea. In most of the worlds religions the dictator is only starting with you at that point.

I have heard anecdotal stories of people who did manage to escape and were picked up by Christian Care workers who, of course, proceeded to try and convert them to Christianity. As soon as they heard of an eternal loving father who gave the people his eternal loving son a horror likely dawned on them thinking "Hang on, isn't this what we just got AWAY from??".

I don't think it's really accurate to compare God/Christ with Kim Jong Il and his father.

[LindavG]

Originally Posted by Trimac20

I don't think it's really accurate to compare God/Christ with Kim Jong Il and his father.

I agree. The God of the Bible is much more violent and cruel.

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by Trimac20

I don't think it's really accurate to compare God/Christ with Kim Jong Il and his father.

Not a 1:1 comparison no, of course not, nor did I attempt to do so.

But there are many parallels which should be as clear as your own nose. An eternal father and his eternal son who will rule, despite no longer being of this world, forever. But anyone rescued from North Korea who then comes in contact with Christian ministers is likely to find some of it all too familiar, with the added bonus that the regime of the Christian world is... if you believe the after life nonsense.... inescapable whereas even those still trapped in North Korea will escape by dying.

However all that said, I think you managed to bypass the main point of my reply to you, which is to point out that if you think there is anything secular or atheistic about the state of North Korea then you are very much not understanding either of those words.

[Trimac20]

Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo

Not a 1:1 comparison no, of course not, nor did I attempt to do so.

But there are many parallels which should be as clear as your own nose. An eternal father and his eternal son who will rule, despite no longer being of this world, forever. But anyone rescued from North Korea who then comes in contact with Christian ministers is likely to find some of it all too familiar, with the added bonus that the regime of the Christian world is... if you believe the after life nonsense.... inescapable whereas even those still trapped in North Korea will escape by dying.

However all that said, I think you managed to bypass the main point of my reply to you, which is to point out that if you think there is anything secular or atheistic about the state of North Korea then you are very much not understanding either of those words.

Well it's what happened to a country that pledged itself to be sternly atheist, in accordance with the Stalinist model. I'm just showing how godlessness, as well as god-mania, can lead to evil regimes. What it is now might be like a religion - but so have many dictatorial regimes in the past.

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by Trimac20

Well it's what happened to a country that pledged itself to be sternly atheist, in accordance with the Stalinist model.

They can _call_ themselves whatever they want and you can _call_ them whatever you like. That does not change the reality that there is nothing secular or atheistic about anything they do. They believe a dead man still runs the country. Exactly what is secular about that? What is atheistic? They think birds sang magically in Korean on the day of his birth. Does that sound like something atheistic to you?

Again if you think there is anything even remotely atheistic or secular about what is going on there then I simply have no idea what you are talking about and rather suspect nor do you. Replacing one religion with another religion is not atheism.

[LindavG]

Originally Posted by Trimac20

Well it's what happened to a country that pledged itself to be sternly atheist, in accordance with the Stalinist model. I'm just showing how godlessness, as well as god-mania, can lead to evil regimes. What it is now might be like a religion - but so have many dictatorial regimes in the past.

When did North Korea pledge itself to be sternly atheist? The whole country is founded on the worship of its divine Dear Leader. Nothing about it is atheist. And even if it was atheist, all it would indicate is a correlation, not a causation. You might as well say that we shouldn't elect male leaders with brown hair because it inevitably leads to dictatorial regimes. Need proof? Just look at what Hitler, Mao, Kim Il-sung and Stalin all have in common

[Trimac20]

Originally Posted by LindavG

When did North Korea pledge itself to be sternly atheist? The whole country is founded on the worship of its divine Dear Leader. Nothing about it is atheist. And even if it was atheist, all it would indicate is a correlation, not a causation. You might as well say that we shouldn't elect male leaders with brown hair because it inevitably leads to dictatorial regimes. Need proof? Just look at what Hitler, Mao, Kim Il-sung and Stalin all have in common

Well North Korean leader worship is probably an extreme example. While some did turn the cults of Lenin, Stalin, Mao or Che Guevara into cults, essentially they were all just dictatorships run by control, as is North Korea. Extreme dictatorships may become indistinguishable from a personality cult, and the basis of many religions.

The fact is, even atheist utopias need leaders, and these leaders will have the same power as a god or gods. So in essence, what I'm saying is, a purely atheistic society is probably not going to be much more peaceful than a religious one, as the above communist examples testify. Even if we discount North Korea (which is in some ways quasi-religious) most of the oppressive regimes of the 20th and 21st century have not been religiously motivated.

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by Trimac20

The fact is, even atheist utopias need leaders, and these leaders will have the same power as a god or gods.

The elected leader of a secular democracy has magic powers and able to create universes??? What world are you living in exactly?

Originally Posted by Trimac20

most of the oppressive regimes of the 20th and 21st century have not been religiously motivated.

You would be surprised. Remember Stalin for example, who was incidently trained in a seminary, rose to power in a country that for many a year has been sold the idea that the Czars were something more than human, almost divine, like demi gods. As soon as he rose to power they have miracles, inquisitions and more.

Again you are finding examples of places that did away with CURRENT religions but in essence just replaced them with their own. You are not comparing like with like here and these things, as I keep pointing out but you insist on remaining wrong, have nothing at all comparable to a secular democracy. State Religion is still religion, even if the figure head of it is human.

Instead of erecting these inaccurate straw men, try focusing on establishing a fully secular democracy. If it descends into superstition, totalitarianism, violence, starvation and worse then we can talk. Sweden and the Netherlands seem to be doing just fine however for example.