What would a world entirely populated by Atheist be like? (Adam, verse)

[Mickiel]

Originally Posted by Trimac20

This is similar to what I believe. I mean I believe in the 'Fall' but I don't believe it truly went against God's will.

I had a thought about God, maybe God truly DOES need us in a way (it may sound heretical). We think of him being totally self-sufficient and all, but maybe his Creation is an essential component of who He is.

To believe in " The Fall", one must believe the situation in Eden was Adam and Eves fault, and they fell out of fellowship with God. It is simply not possible to prove it was Adam or Eves fault; they were obviously set up by God. God allowed the serpent into Eden, there is no other way it could have gotten to them. God didnot prepare or protect them. The young grown couple was so simple minded that the serpent edged them on without having to even lie to them. God was preparing then for Christ to come to earth.

God does not " Need us", in my views he has no needs; but I agree that humanity is a central componant of Gods wishes for the future.

[Trimac20]

Originally Posted by Mickiel

To believe in " The Fall", one must believe the situation in Eden was Adam and Eves fault, and they fell out of fellowship with God. It is simply not possible to prove it was Adam or Eves fault; they were obviously set up by God. God allowed the serpent into Eden, there is no other way it could have gotten to them. God didnot prepare or protect them. The young grown couple was so simple minded that the serpent edged them on without having to even lie to them. God was preparing then for Christ to come to earth.

God does not " Need us", in my views he has no needs; but I agree that humanity is a central componant of Gods wishes for the future.

Well I am...it kind of defines who he is, isn't he? We call him Creator, Father...What if God created nothing? Would he be alone? Some Christians thought the three persons of the trinity would have had a relationship, perfect love.etc - well in that case that sounds more like a tri-pantheon. At least each person wouldn't feel lonely. But they'd know they were really the same all-powerful being.

I don't mean God literally needs us, but in a way his creation might be part of his purpose for existing. Like his role.

I agree. If God truly wanted to prevent it he would have. If he gave us free will, he was aware of the possible consequences.

[Mickiel]

Originally Posted by Trimac20

Well I am...it kind of defines who he is, isn't he? We call him Creator, Father...What if God created nothing? Would he be alone? Some Christians thought the three persons of the trinity would have had a relationship, perfect love.etc - well in that case that sounds more like a tri-pantheon. At least each person wouldn't feel lonely. But they'd know they were really the same all-powerful being.

I don't mean God literally needs us, but in a way his creation might be part of his purpose for existing. Like his role.

I agree. If God truly wanted to prevent it he would have. If he gave us free will, he was aware of the possible consequences.

In my view, God has already created millions, perhaps billions of Angels and other Spirit beings that we simply don't know about; he is not alone. The reason that God created humanity, in my view, was because of Christ, his only " Begotten Son"- which means God actually gave birth to Christ, he didnot create him. He brought Christ forth from " Inside of him", he literally gave birth to him. All other beings he created from outside of him.

And he was so pleased with how that turned out, that he wanted more. This is the reason for humanitys existence, we are the actual offspring of God himself.

Also, I do not believe in the Trinity, or Free will.

[Trimac20]

Originally Posted by Mickiel

In my view, God has already created millions, perhaps billions of Angels and other Spirit beings that we simply don't know about; he is not alone. The reason that God created humanity, in my view, was because of Christ, his only " Begotten Son"- which means God actually gave birth to Christ, he didnot create him. He brought Christ forth from " Inside of him", he literally gave birth to him. All other beings he created from outside of him.

And he was so pleased with how that turned out, that he wanted more. This is the reason for humanitys existence, we are the actual offspring of God himself.

Also, I do not believe in the Trinity, or Free will.

I've always pondered of what it means to be created in the 'image of God'. I always saw the human soul as a sort of reflection of God; ultimately hungering for life, for love and ultimately purpose. Maybe's God's plan was to throw us out in the woods, to see how we would grow as we found our way back to him, for us to experience the journey. It would be sad indeed if all did not make it back to Him.

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by Mickiel

The world was not meant to be populated and ruled by just one group; the diversity was planned.

A nice assumption, but it also assumes the existence of a planner. This makes for a circular argument. The plan is evidence of the planner. The planner is evidence of a plan. The plan is evidence of the planner.... ad infinitum. The perfect circle.

Were you able to substantiate either of the claims in isolation however, then you would have something that would viciate the atheist world.

Originally Posted by Mickiel

Excellent points; we have to bear in mind that the nature of Atheism is to discredit religion, they willnot give it any credit. That would be like those Republicans in congress giving President Obama credit for something.

I give credit where credit is due. I certainly feel no qualms about witholding it where it is not due.

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by Trimac20

The first one is a laugh. Most of the inmates turn to religion after they're in prison. Well maybe now you'll argue that most religious people have criminal tendencies...

Probably better to read the arguments I do make, rather than imagine ones I have not made. All I am doing is pointing out that the assumption a secular or atheist society would be any worse than a theist one is poor given a) there is no evidence for such a claim and b) the correlations would suggest otherwise. More than that I did not say, nor was I trying to say.

Originally Posted by Trimac20

The Golden Rule, which was promulgated by various religions. I'm sure Greek, Chinese or other secular philosophers might have come up with something similar, but it was mainly through religion that this ideal was spread.

If that were true then you have reduced religion to little more than packaging for a good product. In that I would certainly agree as religion has never appeared to be anything but packaging for things we likely would have anyway.

However I do not see any reasons to think it is true. The "Golden Rule" might be stated explicitly in religions but that does not mean they spread it. As I keep pointing out the "golden Rule" is something we all learn from a very early age. The first day you shove another kid and grab their toy.... only to be shoved right back just as hard and the toy grabbed back off you... you have had your first lesson in the golden rule.

Originally Posted by Trimac20

It's hard to imagine the Golden Rule without religion

Only for want of trying it seems, as I am perfectly capable of imagining it quite clearly and with little or no difficultly. If you have any trouble imagining it then simply go sit in a play ground and observe some kids for a few days. You will seem them learning the rule first hand, and no religion involved.

Originally Posted by Trimac20

I haven't really witnessed it in animals, so I doubt it's as innate as you'd like to believe.

Again this can only be for want of trying, especially among the "higher" apes where there is much documentation of things like this. Quite often when one ape perpetuates a "bad action" not only will the same action be revisited upon it by the target, but often by other members of their group.

Originally Posted by Trimac20

Religion contributed nothing to morality? It's one thing to accuse religion of both morality and immorality, the latter of which even I admit to, but to say religion has contributed NOTHING to the development of morality and a moral code shows you are truly deluded.

Aside from name calling do you have anything at all to establish my error? I see nothing that has been added or helped by religion in the realm of morality. Adumbrate the model of how you think it did for us, or is name calling and leaving without backing things up to be the approach for this instead?

Originally Posted by Trimac20

Where raping females, killing enemies, cannibalism and the like are practiced.

Where is this now?

[Trimac20]

Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo

A nice assumption, but it also assumes the existence of a planner. This makes for a circular argument. The plan is evidence of the planner. The planner is evidence of a plan. The plan is evidence of the planner.... ad infinitum. The perfect circle.

Were you able to substantiate either of the claims in isolation however, then you would have something that would viciate the atheist world.

Does Nature seem unplanned to you?

Even Evolution seems like a system that was planned to me...

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

You are right on target, Trimac . . . we are among those of His creation who are part (cells) of how God's consciousness is procreated expanding our universe.

What consciousness? What god? What cells? You are stringing nice words together here but saying nothing at all with them.

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by Trimac20

Does Nature seem unplanned to you?

Even Evolution seems like a system that was planned to me...

I would strongly focus on the word "seems" there. There would appear to be something of a gulf between what "seems" to be and what actually is... and there is nothing on offer that I am aware of to suggest is actually "is" designed or planned.

I am not unsympathetic to the illusion of design and intent that evolution can give however. It is a powerful draw, especially in a species like ours that is evolved to see intent and design even where there is none, for clear evolutionary reasons (for example seeing intent there there is none rarely gets you killed, failing to see it where it is likely will).

[Mickiel]

Originally Posted by Trimac20

I've always pondered of what it means to be created in the 'image of God'. I always saw the human soul as a sort of reflection of God; ultimately hungering for life, for love and ultimately purpose. Maybe's God's plan was to throw us out in the woods, to see how we would grow as we found our way back to him, for us to experience the journey. It would be sad indeed if all did not make it back to Him.

Nobody is going to be lost, Jesus has secured that.