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Old 04-06-2012, 06:29 AM
 
Location: Warren, Michigan
5,298 posts, read 3,587,285 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
Then it is a good thing that no one is advocating a forcible establishment of a totalitarian state to enforce Atheism, isn't it.

This question is really not related to the original topic at all! Even us atheists know that you will never get rid of belief by persecution. That just makes it stronger. To achieve a transition to an atheistic world, it would have to be entirely voluntary. Otherwise, all you have done is made liars of some and martyrs of others.

Can a society, nation, or even the entire world transition to non-theistic understandings of the world? Sure, but if it happens, it will happen slowly through education, societal pressure, and individual choice.

You keep appearing to really want to portray atheists as violent totalitarians, wanting to eradicate by force any opinion but their own. That is a twisted caricature from the minds of the religious, and not at all representative of us unbelievers. For a better picture try reading some Dawkins, Hitchens, Ingersoll, or Russell. We may be opinionated, passionate, and sometimes strident, but that is a far cry from the dictatorial murderers you keep wanting to portray us as.

-NoCapo

It would be impossible for an Atheist world to come about by choice and education. Properly edcuated about God, most people would believe it.

 
Old 04-06-2012, 07:02 AM
 
3,237 posts, read 1,923,476 times
Reputation: 1240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
It would be impossible for an Atheist world to come about by choice and education. Properly edcuated about God, most people would believe it.
I find this very hard to believe, since the vast majority of professing atheists have come to their lack of belief in spite of social pressure and, in some cases, persecution. The only way Atheism spreads is through education and personal conviction. In fact I hold that properly educated about god(s), most people would not believe it. There is not sufficient evidence to support claims for a deity, just logical handwaving and rhetoric.

I am not saying it is realistic that the world will become entirely atheistic. This was a hypothetical situation you asked us to discuss. In fact, I see little danger of militaristic atheism slaughtering anybody. If history shows us anything it is that killing to ensure the supremacy of various forms of theism is the norm. Crusades, jihads, Protestants vs Catholic, Calvinist vs Anglican, the inquisition, the pogroms, killing of "witches" are all examples of the kind of violence you keep wanting to impute to atheists.

For the most part, all we are asking for is a secular society in which we are free to believe as we wish without fear of persecution or reprisal. We do believe that our ideas are correct. We believe strongly enough in them that we believe they can carry the day without threat, without violence, without repression.

-NoCapo
 
Old 04-06-2012, 07:19 AM
 
Location: Warren, Michigan
5,298 posts, read 3,587,285 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
I find this very hard to believe, since the vast majority of professing atheists have come to their lack of belief in spite of social pressure and, in some cases, persecution. The only way Atheism spreads is through education and personal conviction. In fact I hold that properly educated about god(s), most people would not believe it. There is not sufficient evidence to support claims for a deity, just logical handwaving and rhetoric.

I am not saying it is realistic that the world will become entirely atheistic. This was a hypothetical situation you asked us to discuss. In fact, I see little danger of militaristic atheism slaughtering anybody. If history shows us anything it is that killing to ensure the supremacy of various forms of theism is the norm. Crusades, jihads, Protestants vs Catholic, Calvinist vs Anglican, the inquisition, the pogroms, killing of "witches" are all examples of the kind of violence you keep wanting to impute to atheists.

For the most part, all we are asking for is a secular society in which we are free to believe as we wish without fear of persecution or reprisal. We do believe that our ideas are correct. We believe strongly enough in them that we believe they can carry the day without threat, without violence, without repression.

-NoCapo

Oh I certainly disagree; people have not been properly educated about God and still have historically believed in him in the vast majority; if properly educated about him they logically would increase in numbers. Your inclination to suggest that proper education would decrease that number is in no manner logical.

Many wars have been fought that are not religious in nature, I have already given a list; here are more;

The Italian invasion of Ethiopia
The Cold war
Pol Pots Khmer Rouge Revolution
The Falklands War
The Persian Gulf War.
 
Old 04-06-2012, 07:50 AM
 
3,237 posts, read 1,923,476 times
Reputation: 1240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
Oh I certainly disagree; people have not been properly educated about God and still have historically believed in him in the vast majority; if properly educated about him they logically would increase in numbers. Your inclination to suggest that proper education would decrease that number is in no manner logical.
You claim that historically people believed in spite of limited knowledge, I hold that they believed because of it. Either way, we can agree that education and personal choice is the key point to any sort of change, not violence.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
Many wars have been fought that are not religious in nature, I have already given a list; here are more;

The Italian invasion of Ethiopia
The Cold war
Pol Pots Khmer Rouge Revolution
The Falklands War
The Persian Gulf War.
Nice list, but my point was specifically about wars (and other atrocities) to establish the dominance of a particuar variant of theism. Non-religious wars are not the same as wars fought to establish the supremacy of atheism. You could possibly make the case for Stalin's atrocities or Mao's Cultural revolution, but I think it equally possible to make the case that in these cases atheism was a byproduct of the megalomaniacal need for control on the part of the Party leaders.

In short, theism has a long and bloody history of doing what you seem to fear from Atheists, while Atheism has comparatively little in the way of atrocities to account for. You should be much more frightened of fellow theists than of us non-believers, if history is any judge.

-NoCapo
 
Old 04-06-2012, 08:33 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 10,441,633 times
Reputation: 3702
Morning, NoCapo! Nice day, huh?

Anyhow, Mickiel continues to try to hijack his own threa with his mis-direction, his ploy to make us out to be a bunch of amoral blood-hungry ethically-bereft thugs. He does not realize that this is an exact description of the one cohort on this planet who embrace those descriptors most accurately: theists. Like him.

It's been well demonstrated that theist thuggocracies have persistently and historically worked to enforce their religious beliefs by whatever means necessary, including torture and murder.

I'd like to see a single citation showing where any atheist group has specifically tried to enforce their secular perspectives on anyone. I'm not talking about some war-monger like Hitler, a megalomaniac whose ego prompted him into a campaign to take over all of Europe. (First- off, he was mostly Christian, so that one doesn't work either...) but the point is, these guys all did it for their own egos or for power or to obtain some resource, of because some population, like the Japanese, felt that they were being excluded from typical (and ALWAYS religiously motivated, btw...) SE Asian Imperialism as defined by England, America, the French and the Dutch. All highly religious, and prone to invoking God before going into battle, unlike the logical Japanese!

Again, Mickiel, you will NOT be able to ever find any atheist group who has tried to enforce those beliefs.

But to the point that most other observers have made here? You have hijacked your own thread for your own political goals. Interesting; perhaps it should be reported, non? It's just like all the other war-mongering Christians and theists around here: you can't seem to leave things alone, but prefer to stir the pot with off-topic remarks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
It would be impossible for an Atheist world to come about by choice and education. Properly educated about God, most people would believe it.
WRONG: properly educated, people would flee the church and it's highly biased and stubbornly anti-logic and anti-science hyperbole. BTW, I, and several of my best friends, became atheists PRECISELY because of education and thus by choice. Whatever do you think you were saying here? You could not be more wrong. WRONG.

Education and introspection, leading to personal spiritual choices, are EXACTLY why people turn to atheism. Why do you think people become atheist? By dancing with Satan? By stopping going to church and thus losing the opportunity to become influenced by the church?

What a crock. WHAT AN UNENDING CROCK!!!

What you refer to as "education" would be an enforced, discipline-ridden theocratically-based system of special perspective "education" such as what is taught in private Christian schools, where, for example, Evolution is not discussed ("we'll have to wash your mouth out, young man, if you mention THAT subject ever again! Why... it's sacrilege!")

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
I find this very hard to believe, since the vast majority of professing atheists have come to their lack of belief in spite of social pressure and, in some cases, persecution. The only way Atheism spreads is through education and personal conviction. In fact I hold that properly educated about god(s), most people would not believe it. There is not sufficient evidence to support claims for a deity, just illogical handwaving and rhetoric.

rflmn notes: (Sorry: NoCapo; I had to correct your typo, unless you meant to suggest that, in their educational pursuits, theists were ever logical...)

I am not saying it is realistic that the world will become entirely atheistic. This was a hypothetical situation you asked us to discuss.

√ In fact, I see little danger of militaristic atheism slaughtering anybody.

√ If history shows us anything it is that killing to ensure the supremacy of various forms of theism is the norm. Crusades, jihads, Protestants vs Catholic, Calvinist vs Anglican, the inquisition, the pogroms, killing of "witches" are all examples of the kind of violence you keep wanting to impute to atheists.

√ For the most part, all we are asking for is a secular society in which we are free to believe as we wish without fear of persecution or reprisal.

We do believe that our ideas are correct. We believe strongly enough in them that we believe they can carry the day without threat, without violence, without repression.

-NoCapo
Yeah, but Christians and non-denominational theists want a no-contest society where there is no discussion, no deviation and no dissension against the church and it's mandates. Such dissension would be immediately met with The Spanish Inquisition Two! That'll teach those Godless mother-raping, daughter-defiling, cross-burning Evolution-chanting atheists!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
Oh I certainly disagree; people have not been properly educated about God and still have historically believed in him in the vast majority; if properly educated about him they logically would increase in numbers. Your inclination to suggest that proper education would decrease that number is in no manner logical.

Many wars have been fought that are not religious in nature, I have already given a list; here are more;

The Italian invasion of Ethiopia
The Cold war
Pol Pots Khmer Rouge Revolution
The Falklands War
The Persian Gulf War.

Well, again: you deflect and try to impune atheism as the auto-default reason for wars that were not specifically fought for the dominant theocracy. How much more wrong can you possibly be? You mis-direct the discussion with an incorrect pre-conclusions, and then insist on sticking to it when shown to be entirely wrong! Amazing!

And again; I will repeat myself in case you missed it: "...when properly educated, people would flee the church and it's highly biased and stubbornly anti-logic and anti-science hyperbole.

BTW, are you a prime example of one of the so-called "properly educated people" who would support religion whole-heartedly in some special educational process? I guess so!

("Get out the clubs, prods and cattle cars, guys: we have some special citizens here [we have a special yellow asterisk on their shoulders now, so we can easily identify them..."], and we need to send them to one of our several Federal special re-education housing units!" so we can get their heads "right". Right with God! PTL and pass the cattle prods!")

Last edited by rifleman; 04-06-2012 at 08:44 AM..
 
Old 04-06-2012, 08:38 AM
 
Location: 39 20' 59"N / 75 30' 53"W
14,935 posts, read 20,972,171 times
Reputation: 16340
I wouldn't have to worry about the Christmas holiday...thats okay with me.
 
Old 04-06-2012, 08:50 AM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
9,245 posts, read 9,382,671 times
Reputation: 6181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
Oh I certainly disagree; people have not been properly educated about God and still have historically believed in him in the vast majority; if properly educated about him they logically would increase in numbers. Your inclination to suggest that proper education would decrease that number is in no manner logical.

Many wars have been fought that are not religious in nature, I have already given a list; here are more;

The Italian invasion of Ethiopia
The Cold war
Pol Pots Khmer Rouge Revolution
The Falklands War
The Persian Gulf War.
This is (again) ridiculous. A war that is not religious is a very,very different thing from a war that is caused by atheism. You have yet to provide even one example of a war caused by Atheism.

(My guess is that you'll avoid a direct answer and try to change the subject again.)

Last edited by mensaguy; 04-06-2012 at 08:53 AM.. Reason: sheer and utter amazement!
 
Old 04-06-2012, 11:02 AM
 
Location: Warren, Michigan
5,298 posts, read 3,587,285 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
This is (again) ridiculous. A war that is not religious is a very,very different thing from a war that is caused by atheism. You have yet to provide even one example of a war caused by Atheism.

(My guess is that you'll avoid a direct answer and try to change the subject again.)

Some of you Atheist are more righteous than Christians; you think your way of life is clean of causing war; you don't realize how self righteous your trying to paint yourselfs;

Atheism caused these wars;

Russian Civil war- 14 million killed

Ukrainian Famine Genocide 2 million

Communist Chinese Massacres 40 million killed.

No, no, your now excluded from the killing. Atheist like to kill too.
 
Old 04-06-2012, 12:12 PM
 
3,237 posts, read 1,923,476 times
Reputation: 1240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
Some of you Atheist are more righteous than Christians; you think your way of life is clean of causing war; you don't realize how self righteous your trying to paint yourselfs;

Atheism caused these wars;

Russian Civil war- 14 million killed

Ukrainian Famine Genocide 2 million

Communist Chinese Massacres 40 million killed.

No, no, your now excluded from the killing. Atheist like to kill too.
Like I said in my post, the revolutions and subsequent religious persecution by both the Soviets and Chinese are probably fair criticisms. I think the Ukranian Famine is a stretch, since it doesn't appear to have been religiously motivated. Historians still don't appear to agree if it was intentional genocide or a badly managed famine, but I have not seen anything that indicates it had a religious factor.

I do think that the violence evident in the Soviet and Chinese struggles, had its origins not in Atheism as a religious position but in Communism. Marx had theorized that religion was antithetical to Communism, therefor they tried to impose Atheism. I think it could be argues that atheism was not the root of the violence, but was used as a tool to further a primarily communist agenda. In this case I think it was the communist ideology that was wielded in the same manner as religious faith has been used in countless other conflicts.

If two above incidents, horrific as they are, are the worst we can come up with for atheistically motivated evils, I think it is still very safe to say that theism still by far outstrips us in terms of atrocities.

Atheists are not immune to bad behavior. No one said we were. We do however have an advantage , in that Atheism itself makes no demand for blind allegiance, confers no reward for persecuting the faithful, and does not ask us to take any action based on faith. It appears to me that the danger comes with Atheism is subordinated to blind irrational faith in some other dogma (e.g. communism) rather than something inherent to itself.

-NoCapo
 
Old 04-06-2012, 12:43 PM
 
Location: Warren, Michigan
5,298 posts, read 3,587,285 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCapo View Post
Like I said in my post, the revolutions and subsequent religious persecution by both the Soviets and Chinese are probably fair criticisms. I think the Ukranian Famine is a stretch, since it doesn't appear to have been religiously motivated. Historians still don't appear to agree if it was intentional genocide or a badly managed famine, but I have not seen anything that indicates it had a religious factor.

I do think that the violence evident in the Soviet and Chinese struggles, had its origins not in Atheism as a religious position but in Communism. Marx had theorized that religion was antithetical to Communism, therefor they tried to impose Atheism. I think it could be argues that atheism was not the root of the violence, but was used as a tool to further a primarily communist agenda. In this case I think it was the communist ideology that was wielded in the same manner as religious faith has been used in countless other conflicts.

If two above incidents, horrific as they are, are the worst we can come up with for atheistically motivated evils, I think it is still very safe to say that theism still by far outstrips us in terms of atrocities.

Atheists are not immune to bad behavior. No one said we were. We do however have an advantage , in that Atheism itself makes no demand for blind allegiance, confers no reward for persecuting the faithful, and does not ask us to take any action based on faith. It appears to me that the danger comes with Atheism is subordinated to blind irrational faith in some other dogma (e.g. communism) rather than something inherent to itself.

-NoCapo

I think if one looks to pad away direct blame from Atheism for 56 million people being killed, its no better than Theist who try and slick the same.
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