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I agree 100% at this time. Why because we are weak fearful species. We are afraid of our lives being purposeless. We are afraid of death being the end of our existence. That fear drives us into fooling ourselves that we have a greater purpose and that someone or something created us to fulfill that purpose. All without a shred of tangible evidence of that purpose or creator. Religion is driven by fear and as long as we have fear we will have religion.
We have a MASSIVE capacity for self delusion. Weather it's religion,body self image or the truthfulness of our children we all deluded to one extent or another.
Without a shred of tangible evidence! You got to be kidding or just ignoring the evidence. Consciousness is tangible evidence of Consciousness itself. Even science cannot explain this because of its delusion of there even being a God. Science has a massive vault of knowledge at its disposal, but science fears Gods reality!
The Anthropic principles are tangible evidence of God. As is;
DNA, the law of cause and effect, the ontological arguement, the cosmological arguement, the laws of chemistry and biology, the fossil record, the law of entrophy, biogenesis, irreducible complexity, paleontology and archaeology, the laws of conservation, RNA and heat death are all tangible evidence of God.
Well at least here you are offering something to work the theory of Atheist rule on. You are suggesting that religions influence can be changed through debate
Not sure why you make it sound like I am only saying this now.
AGAIN: my position is that when people espouse policy and idea based on unsubstantiated foundations we should resist it. That is all I said. We are talking about "espousing" ideas. That means we are already engaged in discourse, debate, conversation, talking or whatever word you want to use.
So no, I am not now suddenly saying something that I did not say before. This is what I am saying all the time and debate and conversation is indeed the best tool we as a species have in order to move forward.
English appears not to be your first language from what I have seen and your not understanding what I am saying does not equate to me being unable to "explain myself".
And what is being advocated here really is a conversational intolerance. We should not tolerate or pander to unsubstantiated ideas in certain contexts of influence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel
I have to literally squezze specifics out of you, yet you claim debate is one answer
The problem lies with you not me. You are asking general questions and expecting specific answers. It does not work that way. You ask general questions you will get general answers.
When you start asking specific questions you will likely start getting specific answers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel
claim there is no organizational structure in Atheism, no leaders and no spokesmen.
Then take it up with them. I am not here to defend the ideas espoused by people who are not me and I never made such a claim. If someone is making such a claim then go talk to them, not me.
I however know the opposite because I am not only aware of but work in AAI. I am not only aware of but am a founding member of Atheist Ireland. There are also people like Humanist and Secular associations all fighting for much the same things I do.
If you want to know who will "do" the media appearances then just go and look at the ones already done. American news channels are awash with appearances from Sam Harris, Dennett, Dawkins, Hitchens (late), Barker and many more. In Ireland Micheal Nugent the chairman of Atheist Ireland does most of the appearances and talks.
The media is awash with spokesmen. So I am not sure where your atheist friends... assuming they exist and you did not make them up in order to make up anecdotes.... are coming from.
Without a shred of tangible evidence! You got to be kidding or just ignoring the evidence. Consciousness is tangible evidence of Consciousness itself. Even science cannot explain this because of its delusion of there even being a God. Science has a massive vault of knowledge at its disposal, but science fears Gods reality!
The Anthropic principles are tangible evidence of God. As is;
DNA, the law of cause and effect, the ontological arguement, the cosmological arguement, the laws of chemistry and biology, the fossil record, the law of entrophy, biogenesis, irreducible complexity, paleontology and archaeology, the laws of conservation, RNA and heat death are all tangible evidence of God.
When intelligent discourse fails due to unfounded religious belief all that is left is derision. I'll leave it at that as I don't wish to receive a red card from the mods.
Quote;
Then take it up with them. I am not here to defend the ideas espoused by people who are not me and I never made such a claim. If someone is making such a claim then go talk to them, not me. quote;
Well if you don't want to talk, I have no quarrell with that, I'll ask nothing more from you.
Quote;
I however know the opposite because I am not only aware of but work in AAI. I am not only aware of but am a founding member of Atheist Ireland. There are also people like Humanist and Secular associations all fighting for much the same things I do.
If you want to know who will "do" the media appearances then just go and look at the ones already done. American news channels are awash with appearances from Sam Harris, Dennett, Dawkins, Hitchens (late), Barker and many more. In Ireland Micheal Nugent the chairman of Atheist Ireland does most of the appearances and talks.
The media is awash with spokesmen. So I am not sure where your atheist friends... assuming they exist and you did not make them up in order to make up anecdotes.... are coming from.
Well I have never heard of any of these people with the exception of Dawkins, so they need to crank it up some. Well anyhow, thank you for these specifics, and I will question you no more. I hold no intrest in speaking with those who hold no intrest in speaking with me. Peace on your journey.
Ahhhh, thank you! I am going to keep record of how many admit to this senerio being impossible; the theme of the thread is what a world of Atheism would be like? I have intentionally tried to be general about such a thing, and draw views out, although I myself agree with you; its absurd to even think its possible. Yet I see many Atheist, on this board and others, try to maintain that it is not only possible, but inevitable. Then I ask them to explain how? Some have given reasonable responses, but most have given what you can read in thread; evasion; incomplete speculation and not much of anything we could develop into reality.
How many times I have seen certain Atheist demand proof from Theist on their beliefs, yet you ask Atheist for proof of an dominant Atheist society, which they expouse, and what are we getting in response? Heres an oppurtunity to reasonably explain how and why Atheistism will become the superior to religion; and I am not seeing the proof!
It is possible that such as world will someday exist. The point I'm making is that it will not happen as a result of some effort on behalf of atheists. There being so organization, planning and executing anything at all is simply impossible. If such a world comes about, it will simply happen. It will not be because atheists did anything to make it happen. If religions are becoming less popular, it is possible that, if the decline continues, religion could disappear altogether.
When intelligent discourse fails due to unfounded religious belief all that is left is derision. I'll leave it at that as I don't wish to receive a red card from the mods.
Well its unfortunate that your seemingly bowing out, but I respect and understand that. Peace on your journey.
It is possible that such as world will someday exist. The point I'm making is that it will not happen as a result of some effort on behalf of atheists. There being so organization, planning and executing anything at all is simply impossible. If such a world comes about, it will simply happen. It will not be because atheists did anything to make it happen. If religions are becoming less popular, it is possible that, if the decline continues, religion could disappear altogether.
Well religion is not declining in my view, religion is a search for the divine, and I maintain that search is growing, its just growing outside of traditional churchs, whose membership is what is declining.
Well religion is not declining in my view, religion is a search for the divine, and I maintain that search is growing, its just growing outside of traditional churchs, whose membership is what is declining.
Peace.
That's your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. However, multiple unbiased studies have indicated a slow decline in religiosity in America. Fewer church members, more people moving to non-traditional churches, more people reporting that they do not attend any church services, more professing to be agnostics or atheists. Not big changes in numbers, but steady changes over the last few decades. Of course, your observations may be different from the observations of the Pew Research Center.
Personally, I am very much against any institutionalized effort to eradicate religion from society. That's completely the opposite of freedom of conscience and dangerously close to totalitarianism.
There's no need to eradicate religious belief any more than there's a need to eradicate belief in Santa Claus. There's a time and place in society for all of that.
Oh my! What a horrid world that would be, huh? (giggle)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel
Atheism is a belief system; I have not called it a dogma anywhere in this thread. And the way you are now strongly debating this, is called dogmatic! You are dogmatically expressing your ideas and beliefs, or Ideology. And I maintain, that without an agenda, Atheism has no chance in overcomming religion as majority thought in this world.
Quite likely true, mickiel, but for the entirely wrong reasons. It's hardly because reasoning people are seeing the light, now is it?
But it is gaining some ground. How? Because in essence education continues to gain ground, but where free and open education cannot or is notallowed such as in modern day Islamic societies where they only allow memorization of the Glorous Qu'Ran) religion, in the form of extremist Ilsam, is, yup, growing for sure.
In once strongly Catholic countries, as in S. America, Mexico and some African states for instance, it also grows as the population grows uncontrolled. It's a mindless religion for mindless iliterate (uneducated) folks who can be easily scared into contrition, obedience and tithing to the max whatever they can scrounge up. From each, a little blood is taken so the Beast of God can live!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel
Ahhhh, thank you! I am going to keep record of how many admit to this senerio being impossible; the theme of the thread is what a world of Atheism would be like? I have intentionally tried to be general about such a thing, and draw views out, although I myself agree with you; its absurd to even think its possible. Yet I see many Atheist, on this board and others, try to maintain that it is not only possible, but inevitable. Then I ask them to explain how? Some have given reasonable responses, but most have given what you can read in thread; evasion; incomplete speculation and not much of anything we could develop into reality.
How many times I have seen certain Atheist demand proof from Theist on their beliefs, yet you ask Atheist for proof of an dominant Atheist society, which they expouse, and what are we getting in response? Heres an oppurtunity to reasonably explain how and why Atheistism will become the superior to religion; and I am not seeing the proof!
I'd say that, until we eradicate religion from within the political influencing business, we would not see atheism as a dominant "belief". Even so, there would be, of course, no structure, mandates or rules to such beliefs, just that deeply held Christian or Islamic religious expression and interpretation would fade away from everyday life, as it now do very evidently is in Europe and Canada, and slowly for now, in America as well.
Islam does grow for now in Europe since the Muslims are (or have been...) actively importing all their congregation from the ME (Silly countries! Didn't anyone warn them?). Now however, there is an ongoing and ever-more vigorous anti-Islamic reaction to this obvious cultural invasion. No more mosques can be built in the Scandinavian countries I understand, and certain of the exiting ones will be, or are being dismantled now. No incursion of Sharia laws wil be allowed and no ID with a Burkah on. No girls in public schools allowed to wear Burkahs either.
In other words, some common sense rules are being put in place. This will eventually expand here in the US, to a firm denial of any specific Christian incursions into, say, the high school science curriculum (Genesis & Creationism being absolutely NON-scientific after all...) and so on.
Btw, the results of allowing nutzo fundy religion and it's ancient morés into an existing culture was never more violently expressed than the recent (this week) court ruling on the honor killing by the Muslim father of three of his young daughters and his ex-wife for "dishonoring" him in some pitiable way. (Two of his daughters had each developed innocent relationships with non-Muslim teens, and his ex-wife had simply taken the side of the rights of these girls. He then decided that the youngest, who had done nothing, likely would eventually, and so: she had to go as well! He still maintins it was his right! His personal (read: arrogant) honor was, after all, the most important thing to this ultra-chauvinist+ piggo. He also conscripted his oldest son into this bloody event!
This also sort of reminds me of listening to a blathering Catholic Priest expounding on His Lord God's Absolute & Holy Ways and Determinations, eh? This was, however, not in Tehran, but in Toronto, Canada FurChrizzSáke!, where the citizens must live by the local rules of order & conduct. Not to mention simple common sense! Talk about ignorant and bind adherence to a faith-based cultural existence!
So... A world populated only by atheists? Oh God forbid! Better this way!
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Oh my! What a horrid world that would be, huh? (giggle)
Oh God forbid! Better this way!