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Old 01-31-2012, 10:41 PM
 
Location: South Africa
5,420 posts, read 3,633,126 times
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15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Eating leads to death
2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
The serpent (thought to be the devil) tells Eve something else.

Eating leads to enlightenment.
22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.
Hmmmmm Talk about deceit?


How about a set up?
4 This is the history[a] of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, 5 before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground; 6 but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground.
No one to till the ground, i.e. agriculture
23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.
Lets see where this leads?

Last edited by SeekerSA; 01-31-2012 at 11:12 PM..
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Old 01-31-2012, 10:54 PM
 
Location: Up above the world so high!
44,840 posts, read 56,240,416 times
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huh??
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Old 02-01-2012, 08:02 AM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
10,578 posts, read 4,960,291 times
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The "knowledge of good and evil" - Is unbridled human imagination gone wild....in other words - the lack of good perception of what is real and what is not - it is the ablity...to decieve yourself and others - it is counter to a thing called the truth....in plain language...it is not about innocence or so-called original sin - it is about an abused gift - the gift from God is intelligence - to toy with reality...in order to disrupt creation - or attempt to control the world through the insanity - that is commonly called lieing....is a huge - huge disturbance in the order of things...the message was - stick to reality and truth and you will enjoy your days on earth to the maximum....allow yourself to be insane...and you will live in hell - this in my mind is also the eccence of free will....to NOT allow yourself to drift and live in your own imagination.....Imagination should be reserved for art - not pragmatic living... Thinking something does not make it so.
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Old 02-01-2012, 08:37 AM
 
Location: Tulsa
2,529 posts, read 2,604,369 times
Reputation: 538
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Eating leads to death
2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
The serpent (thought to be the devil) tells Eve something else.

Eating leads to enlightenment.
22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.
Hmmmmm Talk about deceit?


How about a set up?
4 This is the history[a] of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, 5 before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground; 6 but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground.
No one to till the ground, i.e. agriculture
23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.
Lets see where this leads?
This is the first this has been laid out this way for me. It amazes me the inconsistencies, lies, etc, found in the bible when one opens their eyes and looks. How many times did I read this when going to church? Tons. Yet never did I actually stop and see what it actually reads.

I do remember in class it was always taught that they did not "die" that day physically, but that they "died" spiritually.

The serpent definitely told the truth.
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Old 02-01-2012, 08:54 AM
 
2,934 posts, read 1,401,168 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oleg Bach View Post
The "knowledge of good and evil" - Is unbridled human imagination gone wild....in other words - the lack of good perception of what is real and what is not - it is the ablity...to decieve yourself and others - it is counter to a thing called the truth....in plain language...it is not about innocence or so-called original sin - it is about an abused gift - the gift from God is intelligence - to toy with reality...in order to disrupt creation - or attempt to control the world through the insanity - that is commonly called lieing....is a huge - huge disturbance in the order of things...the message was - stick to reality and truth and you will enjoy your days on earth to the maximum....allow yourself to be insane...and you will live in hell - this in my mind is also the eccence of free will....to NOT allow yourself to drift and live in your own imagination.....Imagination should be reserved for art - not pragmatic living... Thinking something does not make it so.
You must have partaken from that tree yourself - for you show a surprising amount of imagination when interpreting an other-wise simple story.
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:03 AM
 
2,934 posts, read 1,401,168 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mzjamiedawn View Post
This is the first this has been laid out this way for me. It amazes me the inconsistencies, lies, etc, found in the bible when one opens their eyes and looks. How many times did I read this when going to church? Tons. Yet never did I actually stop and see what it actually reads.

I do remember in class it was always taught that they did not "die" that day physically, but that they "died" spiritually.

The serpent definitely told the truth.
I was taught the same thing about the "spiritual" death - but that's just an example of apologetics, and how the idea of the nephesh (a living soul or being, basically) eventually evolved into the idea of a soul that lives on past death. The Old Testament had no such concept of the soul living on after death, and awaiting judgment. I have also heard the Christian apologetical explanation that the soul died in the Garden, so we invite Jesus into our heart to "use" his soul to live forever, since Jesus "defeated" death. Bah. It is things like this that are so far from the actual text as to be mind-boggling.

The story is not as complex as later interpreters would make it.


Now, agreeing with the view that God's warning wasn't entirely honest, I would also point out that there is another way of reading the passage. "In the day that you eat of it" could also be an example of saying "the day you fire me, you'll regret it" - with the person planning to come back in several months later, or years, to shoot the employer. It's possible that the author meant something similar to this. I find it difficult to believe that the biblical author writing this story would deliberately impugn a falsehood to God, so that opens up the above suggestion.

The serpent did, however, tell the truth most definately about their divine status once they ate from the tree. They DID have their eyes opened, and this did force God's hand into dealing with his new possible rivals.
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:17 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,420 posts, read 3,633,126 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mzjamiedawn View Post
This is the first this has been laid out this way for me. It amazes me the inconsistencies, lies, etc, found in the bible when one opens their eyes and looks. How many times did I read this when going to church? Tons. Yet never did I actually stop and see what it actually reads.
It is called leading folk by the nose. Preaching is in fact easy, cherry pick verses and add your spin.
Quote:
I do remember in class it was always taught that they did not "die" that day physically, but that they "died" spiritually.
Obviously they say this as the kicking out of the garden was really what happened (sequentially I mean) However, we have no prior evidence they were in any way uber spiritual. This is just lama apologetics.
Quote:
The serpent definitely told the truth.
Well kind of. These come from two different creation events merged together. Folk assume one is merely an expansion of the other but it was a merging of two divergent creation myths. Folk are not aware of this.

By the time folk read Genesis, they are already schooled (duped) in duplicity of scripture being acceptable. You are told to read the Gospel of John first, then go back to Matthew and read through, accepting the different accounts as "just another version"

Most people only have a Sunday school literacy of the bible.
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Old 02-01-2012, 01:33 PM
 
1,168 posts, read 603,785 times
Reputation: 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Eating leads to death
2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
The serpent (thought to be the devil) tells Eve something else.

Eating leads to enlightenment.
22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.
Hmmmmm Talk about deceit?


How about a set up?
4 This is the history[a] of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, 5 before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground; 6 but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground.
No one to till the ground, i.e. agriculture
23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.
Lets see where this leads?
Well from where I read into things...Adam is the only one who could talk the same language as Eve and God...So it would be easy to say Adam hid behind some bushes, near where Eve was, and the snake or serpent...and Adam spoke as the snake...to see if Eve would die.
When Adam saw Eve still alive after eating the fruit or seed or of the tree told not to...he to ate.
Saying it was out of love for her, ...but in reality he knew all along..and thought he was safe....

As it is...No other snake or animal has ever been known to speak to humans in human tounge...or Godly tounge...to this day.

So who is the liar?...Adam....if I read into things correctly that is....and who is eaily lead astray?...Eve...

it is not in the eating that sin arises...it is in the disobediance of God's instruction...that leads to punishment...For there is nothing done, that cannot be undone, and nothing undone, that cannot be redone...by God.

Do we deserve salvation or forgiveness?...Jesus says Yes...If we comply and obey, and honour God....that first instruction needs doing...and sinlessly doing it could infact reverse something of Death....if done right and sinlessly restored onto God...and multiplied out...and to Give and share all things with all peoples and living things....

But we all know that kinda thinking is kinda out the window with capatilizum about now...So...reading into things again makes oddly astounding remarkable insight into cause and effect.
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Old 02-01-2012, 01:36 PM
 
Location: South Wales, Yes, I'm, back!
15,633 posts, read 7,848,576 times
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Some apologists have tried to get around this by rewiting what the Bible says to make it say something else.

Genesis 2.17 God said: "but of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you may not take; for on the day when you eat of it, you will certainly die."

but Gen 3 4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent (actually lizard as it had it legs at that time) said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

What happened. "she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked;"
The serpent had it right. "22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil." Did they die on that day? Evidently not.

Some have argued that what happened was that Adam lost immortality on that day. But did Adam even have immortality? The animals didn't as they didn't eat of any tree and they die even quicker than Adam's seed. It follows that Adam had a limited life like all the rest of living creation. It is true that God resolved "He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” But it is not clear that God intended him to eat from it at all or he would have done so long before.

Further, in the list of punishments Gen 3 19 "you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.” falls far short of telling him that immortality has been taken away because of disobedience. In short the lizard told the truth and just how it knew makes one think uncomfortably of Satan as dirty - work gofor in Job. God however, was rather economical with the truth in implying that they would drop dead on the spot like the fig tree outside the temple in Matth 21.20 and just ensures that his days are not prolonged indefinitely by artificial means.

Of course, this absurd story is not to be taken literally and many apologists will say that it is symbolic or metaphorical. I agree and in my book that means mythical and effectively irrelevant.
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Old 02-01-2012, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Dallas, Texas
1,803 posts, read 1,209,067 times
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This is one of the reasons Gnostic Christianity is so neat: it takes this goofy story and flips it on its head.

In the Gnostic viewpoint, the god of the old testament, while certainly powerful and the creator of the universe, isn't the one true god. Rather, he is an emanation of an emanation, a god god rogue. He creates the universe poorly, as a prison, and demands that his prisoners not learn of the truth of things.

But Adam and Eve, with the help of the serpent, do eat of the tree, and learn the true nature of "god" - that he is a jealous, vindictive, petty creation. Which is pretty much exactly what the abrahamic god is. He's the villain.
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