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Old 02-02-2012, 05:15 PM
 
91 posts, read 71,225 times
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Default A question to the religious

Do you really believe god is kind? This is a question I can't move beyond in studying all religions and trying to take them seriously.

How can one look at the world with any measure of objectivity and conclude god is kind? Suffering outweighs pleasure on an almost unimaginable scale.

 
Old 02-03-2012, 03:33 AM
 
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Belief is a personal aspect of the physical mind, and it's manager, ego. It is a matter of having conditioned yourself to what your senses and your mind tell you is real. It is your perception and interpretation of that perception that causes your judgement of good and evil, kindness and malevolence, generally influenced by the perception of Other as separate from Self. However, KNOWING is something impersonal, beyond belief. The term "kind" is irrelevant in reference to the manifestations of Creator. Nothing is inherently good or bad. Nothing is inherently kind or malevolent. It is only human conditioning that makes it so in our experience of life. Part of our conditioning insists that what we believe, we know. But, in truth, it is exactly that which we believe that we do NOT know. When we stop believing, we are left with knowing.

One does not look at the world to see God. One looks at the universe to see the manifestation of eternal intent placed into infinite potential in the process of Creation. In gazing on the external universe we see the product of Creator, but we do not see Creator, the One.

Turn your gaze inward, and look on nothing that can be questioned or doubted as real. Eventually you will see only one truth, the truth of Self, the undeniable I AM. That is the One. You have found your God and it is YOU. And YOU are homogenous with ALL THAT IS, for in all things is the breath of Creator, in all things there is life. In all things there is only intent and potential, manifest as energy in vibration.

So, what is real? All we perceive is our interpretation of what is formed of atoms and molecules, and they themselves are formed purely of energy in infinite vibratory rates. So what we see is not at all as we see it. And we are not as we see ourselves. We are all, everything that exists, part of that same energy, vibrating into the illusion of form. We are congruent with the One. Collectively, we, ALL THAT IS, are the One. One Self, living in ALL states, all lives, throughout infinity, through the eternity of a tiny spark we call Now. In being given life within that spark of Consciousness, do you not feel gratitude for the kindness of that manifestation of KNOWING? To NOT KNOW is to suffer. Suffering is a belief, a manifestation of the human mind. Pleasure is the same. In KNOWING there is neither pleasure or pain. In Perfection there is nothing to compare. Surrender to the sovereign Oneness that is YOU. Just Be. Be the One you ARE, ALL THAT IS, and manifest Perfection.

You stated, "Suffering outweighs pleasure on an almost unimaginable scale." The key phrase here is "almost unimaginable." Imagination is the source of Intent. All that you imagine, you create. Take responsibility for your creation. Why would you imagine suffering, when that imagining becomes unconscious intent? Place conscious intent into the infinite field of potential and watch what changes. You are Creator.
 
Old 02-03-2012, 04:55 AM
 
Location: London, UK
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Increasingly, I see the 'god' question as being about two totally different subjects.

(i) (just for a change) personal gods and specifically the specific entity described in the Bible

(j) 'What made everything' god or 'First cause or indeed 'evilution'.

(k) these religious feeling and mystical experiences we get.

The last two are linked in the 'New agnosticism' as I call it where fringe - science doubts about reality and what might be called 'spiritual' or ineffable plus the case for First cause or as Mystic put it, the necessary 'will' of the universe to begin creating can make half -believing agnosticism an attractive alternative to atheism where not knowing means not believing until we do know (though it is represented as being a flat denial of any such god -possibility)

The well - documented occurrences of mystical ecstasy can be taken as a mental or 'spiritual' link to this entity. I note the experiments with tinkering with the brain and I prefer to remain cautious and frankly skeptical of the need to be so evangelical about it. Ok, So we maybe have a mental link with the universe. That does not require that we go all religious.

Because (i) is about gods and religions dreamed up by people. Gods created in their image. It is taking the next step and supposing that this vague quantum god or cosmic mind plus the mystical experience is to be interpreted as an entity that has made rules for us, is looking after us, many say created us and often suppose that it has rewards and punishments lined up for us after we die.

The I have to reject. I cannot be agnostic abut it as the signals are so mixed, the representations and stories so absurd, unworkable and often reprehensible that the claims made about them can only be rejected by anyone not completely mired in faith.

To get to the subject, claims that such a deity is looking after us and cares for us and wants us to do good as it is 'good' itself is so obviously at variance with the facts of human history that is has to be rejected by anyone with their head on the right way round.

It is about such 'personal' gods that I can say 'It does not exist'. About Bible-god I have disbelief, not just agnostic non -belief. Arguing that it is 'all the same god' just denies personal gods as much as I do and steps back to this vague 'sortagod' about which nobody knows anything other than feelings similar to those experienced when the parietal lobes are squeezed or one takes a whiff of Bhang. Hardly the proof of a cosmic mind.

To those who say that this 'god' (the rule is lower case) is the one they worship and all the others just delusions, then they had better sort it out with believers in the other gods and even the same one with different rules and belief -requirements and, if they can make a better case than quoting their Holy Books, (which is evidence of absolutely nada) then we might talk.
 
Old 02-03-2012, 07:16 AM
 
Location: Asheville, Nc
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If your talking about the Judeo-Christian God then no. The bible shows he is not a loving or kind God.
 
Old 02-03-2012, 08:25 AM
 
2,962 posts, read 1,138,563 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reed067 View Post
If your talking about the Judeo-Christian God then no. The bible shows he is not a loving or kind God.
I think that's a somewhat limited view, but I understand where it's coming from. A surface reading of the bible (which is all most are capable of without the context of the Oral Torah to go with it) can easily lead someone to this conclusion.

Think of it this way. G-d is the father, and we are His children. Just like a child, we sometimes don't understand why He is being "a meanie" to us, and we therefore conclude that He is not loving. But again like my moshul (analgy), a parent sometimes has to punish or correct a child for his wayward behavior. And the parent doesn't do it to be mean, but rather to express their love for the child. To let your child get away with anything is a lack of love. And us "children," given the opportunity, will indeed try to "get away with anything." Thanks G-d we have G-d.
 
Old 02-03-2012, 08:50 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 3,308,554 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boulderduder View Post
Do you really believe god is kind? This is a question I can't move beyond in studying all religions and trying to take them seriously.

How can one look at the world with any measure of objectivity and conclude god is kind? Suffering outweighs pleasure on an almost unimaginable scale.

Yes, but not in term of emotionalism. Kindness does not always result in happy warm fuzzy feelings.

One of the human contradictions in thought is that man wants free will but can't actually stand to face the result of it. You have free will but want to imply blame to God for the suffering that man causes when he excerzises it.

Some religious people, rather than face that reality, blame God for it by saying we do not actually have that freedom to use.

The kindness I see in terms of a belief in God is that God allows us to be free, be individuals, but will never allow that freedom to result in our eternal doom. But we are not created as programs in a computer like we do not have to face the reality of what bad resides in our consciousness and often LIKE it.

True, we can argue our way into oblivion on all the ramifications that raises in terms of how a God may be defined. But in terms of your basic question, you can blame God for all the suffering or face the reality of life and see that it is all caused by human beings in the first place.
 
Old 02-03-2012, 12:32 PM
 
Location: South Africa
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Suffering is not all man made, some of it is due to circumstances beyond people's control.

The often used what about the starving kids in Africa is used as a counter to pithy claims for god iro job promotions etc. The folk that make this counter are not expecting a god to make a notable difference as the counter claimants are ridiculing that of the claimant. We know god does not exist but if he did, we kinda would hold him to a higher standard seeing he is love and all.

Conveniently sweeping the question(s) under the proverbial theist rug, does not make the questions go away. A god that can instapoof all of "creation" into being in 6 days, take time out to address your egocentric whims yet fails to deal with real issues, kinda makes this god shoot himself in the proverbial foot all the time.

In the end, the only real differences happen when folk get off their butts and do something tangible themselves. No gods are required for that, just empathetic motivation.
 
Old 02-03-2012, 12:42 PM
 
2,962 posts, read 1,138,563 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
In the end, the only real differences happen when folk get off their butts and do something tangible themselves. No gods are required for that, just empathetic motivation.
I like that thought. And I think G-d would, too.
 
Old 02-03-2012, 05:54 PM
 
322 posts, read 129,197 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boulderduder View Post
Do you really believe god is kind? This is a question I can't move beyond in studying all religions and trying to take them seriously.

How can one look at the world with any measure of objectivity and conclude god is kind? Suffering outweighs pleasure on an almost unimaginable scale.

"god" gives us everything .. we are the ones that create the suffering

the world has more than enuff for eveyone to live in abundance.
we as people have become greedy, lazy, self righteous.. this creates the suffering

god gives us life.. breath, health strength.
its when we want to profit and gain the world at others expense we create suffering.
god is good. we are the ones that may not be so kind at times
 
Old 02-03-2012, 06:32 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,172 posts, read 2,175,021 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
I think that's a somewhat limited view, but I understand where it's coming from. A surface reading of the bible (which is all most are capable of without the context of the Oral Torah to go with it) can easily lead someone to this conclusion.

Think of it this way. G-d is the father, and we are His children. Just like a child, we sometimes don't understand why He is being "a meanie" to us, and we therefore conclude that He is not loving. But again like my moshul (analgy), a parent sometimes has to punish or correct a child for his wayward behavior. And the parent doesn't do it to be mean, but rather to express their love for the child. To let your child get away with anything is a lack of love. And us "children," given the opportunity, will indeed try to "get away with anything." Thanks G-d we have G-d.
That may be one aspect of God you describe. However, let me bring up another one. First, us humans as imperfect and savages we may be as history shows, we have come up with ideas to make war at least a little more humane. We came up with the Geneva Convention for example. Did God came up with some of the ideas listed in the Geneva Convention? No. Actually we proved to be more humane than God as portrayed in the Old Testament. I do not have a Bible at hand but I am sure you read that in some cases he ordered his people to go and take a town. His rules of engagement? Kill every woman and child. Is that a loving God? Not in my opinion.
Also, how about what King David did? He lusted for this married woman. What he did? He gave orders to send her husband to the front of the lines to ensure he would get killed and he could have her. What did God do? The baby Kind David and this woman had to die? Remember? A poor inocent child paid the price for David's actions!!!!
A question for you. What is the meaning of writing G-d instead of God? Some type of politically correct thing? Take care.
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