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Old 09-06-2007, 05:31 PM
 
Location: Somewhere along the path to where I'd like to be.
2,180 posts, read 5,408,957 times
Reputation: 829

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaykay View Post
I don't even know if you want to answer this one, but where do you think you are today in reference to reconciling, if you will, your sexual orientation and your religious beliefs and faith? I know that you have seemed very conflicted and tormented about this issue. Do you feel you have reached any conclusions for your own life or do you feel like you are still seeking?
In truth, I keep fluctuating. There are moments of great clarity when I affirm one position over another, and then quite literally later the same day I will see something differently, or some "bump" will come along that throws me off, and I will be back at square one. That's why this is a struggle for me. It's a daily thing. I live this EVERY DAY.

Alcoholism, drug addiction, lust, health problems, stress, bad bosses - whatever personal vice or daily struggle that people deal with, none of it actually compares to this because in some way or another, those things are either harmful or plain old annoying and able to be dealt with. Not permitting me to have a loving, committed, monogamous, intimate relationship with someone that feels natural to me (not forced) and fulfilling (not shallow and lacking) cuts to the very core of who I am.

A lot of times I feel so alone in this, you know? I told Jeff the other night that I feel like I'm drowning sometimes. For all the struggles that straight people might have to put up with, at the end of the day - if they want it - they can turn to another human being and asked to be held and loved. They can get lost in that person's eyes, or in that person's smile, or that person's love - even to the extent of the physical expression of that love. They have the human touch of a very special person in their life that is theirs alone and no one else's.

And I don't have that. And I constantly face being told I'm not allowed to have that. So I don't know what to say sometimes. Or how to feel. Many times I'm afraid to feel anything. Sometimes when I go out shopping or wherever, if I see a good-looking guy, I'm faced with one of two options.....either look at him, and feel damned guilty as hell. Or I stare at the ground the entire time I'm out. Because I'm afraid if I allow myself to look at them, it might stir up a bunch of anger and other feelings that I get freakin' fed up with dealing with.

You know, it wasn't long ago - just a few months back - when I was literally BEGGING God to make me blind. Physically blind. I would rather be BLIND than to deal with this anymore.

To get back to what you asked, for now I have told God that I believe homosexuality is wrong. I can't seem to reconcile it. I can't seem to find ANY answers about it, other than to simply take the safe road. I'd rather deal with this as a cross to bear for the rest of my life as opposed to going to hell because I was deceived. But I want to note, all of my answers in this thread still hold true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaykay View Post
Like brittZ said, I'm sure you also know my position and beliefs about this too, but I also wish you peace and the very best, Rob. As I said when you first appeared on this forum, you are very intellligent and articulate and I have appreciated your insightful posts.
Must be the writer in me. Thanks for the kind words!

 
Old 09-06-2007, 05:56 PM
 
Location: Somewhere along the path to where I'd like to be.
2,180 posts, read 5,408,957 times
Reputation: 829
Quote:
Originally Posted by brittZ View Post
While I dont agree with everything you say, I appreciate your attempts to be forthright and honest. I can see that you are uncertain about a lot of things but from where you are now compared to where you were a few months ago, it seems as though you have come a long way in comming to terms with yourself and who you are. Good for you on that one! If talking to people here is helping you sort it all out, then that is great. You know my perspective on homosexuality from our past battles. However, I don't presume to judge you nor will I speak ill of you. Silently I will pray that God works in your life (and in all our lives) to make you and us who we are supposed to be and do follow the path he has for us. Good luck to you Rob.
brittZ, while I know I repped you for this post - and those reps still stand , because I truly appreciate what you've said - I got to thinking about this a bit, and I was wondering if you could go ahead and tell me WHY you don't agree with whatever it is I said that you don't agree with. Thanks!

In fact, I'd really be interested in hearing why ANYBODY doesn't agree with something I've said. I can deal with it, so long as you don't accuse me of NOT being a Christian. I don't know if I'm just missing something, or what. I realize so many of you will refer to the Biblical passages, but that doesn't work because as I've said, there are so many differing opinions about those verses and what they actually refer to. Or....if you could tell me why those theologians and different opinions are flawed, I'd be more than willing to hear what you say.

Thanks.
 
Old 09-06-2007, 06:22 PM
 
46 posts, read 31,374 times
Reputation: 50
You seem very knowledgeable, so I hope this doesn't come off sounding bad.

You do know that the Bible has been changed over many decades into someone else's own personal interpretation of what the scriptures actually say, right?

I can't quote anything that "might" make you feel better or for you to better examine because I'm not religious in any way, but I understand and accept the fact that others are. I have still studied many religions which brings up another question.

A lot of these religions say that others not of their faith are going to hell. So if that is the case then there is a flaw in that logic. If you're not Christian you're going to burn. If you're not Catholic you're going to burn. And so on and so forth.. what are you going to do, be a part of every religion? I doubt they would find that very "acceptable" at all. So, which religion is the right one? Are you willing to make that gamble?

-- Just as an aside note because I find you interesting as a person and want to know more that goes on in your head.. do you think because I am not religious that I am going to hell?
 
Old 09-06-2007, 06:26 PM
 
Location: Texas
8,672 posts, read 22,215,853 times
Reputation: 21364
Quote:
Originally Posted by WCRob View Post
In truth, I keep fluctuating. There are moments of great clarity when I affirm one position over another, and then quite literally later the same day I will see something differently, or some "bump" will come along that throws me off, and I will be back at square one. That's why this is a struggle for me. It's a daily thing. I live this EVERY DAY.

Alcoholism, drug addiction, lust, health problems, stress, bad bosses - whatever personal vice or daily struggle that people deal with, none of it actually compares to this because in some way or another, those things are either harmful or plain old annoying and able to be dealt with. Not permitting me to have a loving, committed, monogamous, intimate relationship with someone that feels natural to me (not forced) and fulfilling (not shallow and lacking) cuts to the very core of who I am.

A lot of times I feel so alone in this, you know? I told Jeff the other night that I feel like I'm drowning sometimes. For all the struggles that straight people might have to put up with, at the end of the day - if they want it - they can turn to another human being and asked to be held and loved. They can get lost in that person's eyes, or in that person's smile, or that person's love - even to the extent of the physical expression of that love. They have the human touch of a very special person in their life that is theirs alone and no one else's.

And I don't have that. And I constantly face being told I'm not allowed to have that. So I don't know what to say sometimes. Or how to feel. Many times I'm afraid to feel anything. Sometimes when I go out shopping or wherever, if I see a good-looking guy, I'm faced with one of two options.....either look at him, and feel damned guilty as hell. Or I stare at the ground the entire time I'm out. Because I'm afraid if I allow myself to look at them, it might stir up a bunch of anger and other feelings that I get freakin' fed up with dealing with.

You know, it wasn't long ago - just a few months back - when I was literally BEGGING God to make me blind. Physically blind. I would rather be BLIND than to deal with this anymore.

To get back to what you asked, for now I have told God that I believe homosexuality is wrong. I can't seem to reconcile it. I can't seem to find ANY answers about it, other than to simply take the safe road. I'd rather deal with this as a cross to bear for the rest of my life as opposed to going to hell because I was deceived. But I want to note, all of my answers in this thread still hold true.



Must be the writer in me. Thanks for the kind words!
Well, for what it's worth I will be praying for you that you find answers and peace.
 
Old 09-06-2007, 07:12 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,493 posts, read 7,293,522 times
Reputation: 1502
WCRob,

If you had never identified yourself as homosexual, yet shared your struggles in a gender neutral way, I would have thought I was reading one of the old saints of the church, in many things you say.

People, who through choice or circumstance, choose to be single and cellbate, share your struggles, more than you know.

I'm not promoting catholicism, (really and truely) but have you ever had a heart to heart with a good and Godly priest or sister? Believe me, they would benefit from it as much as you could. And you don't have to be Catholic.
 
Old 09-06-2007, 07:26 PM
sun
 
Location: Central Connecticut
683 posts, read 2,120,122 times
Reputation: 449
Quote:
Originally Posted by WCRob View Post
Okay, I'm going to alter your post a bit, and every place you wrote "gay" or "homosexual" or something to that effect, I'm going to insert the word "straight" or "heterosexual" or whatever opposite word applies - and vice versa. See my changes below in bold red color....

Now, read that as if you were me writing it to you. What kind of answers would you give me in response?

I'm not doing that to sound like a smarta**, but rather I want the other readers to know what it sounds like when we hear those kinds of questions being asked of us. I WILL respond to your questions. They are kinda loaded, so I'm going to need some time to think about them.
You don't need to answer my questions, especially after reading that you've never had a straight sexual experience for comparison and from which to provide an honest response.
However, I do want to comment with my opinion about what I've read. I've never really believed that most homosexuals are born that way, but I'm not really sure why I think that either. You said that you were shy, and had certain influences at a young age. It seems to me that there is a possibility that your heart learned to go pitter patter for males when you were very young, and thus maybe your libido was conditioned to respond to males that way, rather than to females. The fact that you said that you appreciated female companionship from 15 to 18, and were willing to get engaged and married shows that you wanted to at least try to have a straight relationship. But you were spurned, and then in conjunction with the previously conditioned patterns & urges for male sexual gratification, you quite trying to have a straight sexual relationship, and now you are celibate and admittedly lonely & unhappy.
I'm sorry that you were so shy when you were young. I remember being with male companions at that age and reading hot romance out aloud together and fantasizing about girls, or female teachers, along with viewing an occasional Playboy magazine. Maybe this was more normal male conditioning?
If you had experienced different pre-pubescent conditioning, maybe you wouldn't be experiencing some of the quandries that you have today. It's very difficult to determine.
So if my previous questions seemed loaded, they were loaded to a degree toward a person with both gay and straight sexual experiences, and how that impacts their current sexual orientation.
It doesn't apply in your case, except, you've raised some doubts in my mind about how you can believe that you have absolutely no choice about being gay.
I heard you say that heterosexuals don't understand that you can't help what your sexual preference is. But unless you have first sought out the help of a professional sex therapist (or sex surrogate?), how do you know that you couldn't participate in a healthy, normal and loving heterosexual relationship? It's been so long since you had a sexual relationship of any kind (1992), maybe just giving it a shot could give you a world of new perspective?
Please, don't be angry for my opinion. I really don't know if your conditioning can be overcome or not, but you did seem offended by a similar earlier inference. If you yearn for a special relationship, maybe it's time that you have a diagnostic performed from several angles to provide you with options?
Since you probably believe that changing your orientation is simply not possible, then I'm sorry to have intruded into your thread.
BTW, I respect your choice to be celibate and good luck.
 
Old 09-06-2007, 10:06 PM
 
Location: In the Redwoods
30,286 posts, read 51,748,879 times
Reputation: 23658
Quote:
Originally Posted by b. frank View Post
Yes, me too. And I have more questions.
I have a gay Christian friend, but I am not close enough to him to feel comfortable asking him about his religion. So...
How do you find Christian fellowship?
Do you have to go to a "special" church where you are accepted?
Do you go to a "regular" church and stay closeted?
Or are there ANY "regular" Christian churches out there that you can attend while being openly gay? If so, are you comfortable there?
The Christian churches that I know about would not tolerate an openly gay person among the congregation (unless, of course, they are there to be cured).
I'm not WCRob (or gay), but living in San Francisco, I know of MANY gay-friendly churches & temples... actually, I think all of our churches would be "gay-friendly", since I can't imagine anyone being turned away for that! Not only would it be against our city's overall beliefs, but they'd probably have a major lawsuit on their hands. Anyway, there are some that are specifically for the gay community, and others that are simply "accepting" of gay parishioners. And as I've mentioned here before, my Synagogue has an openly lesbian Rabbi, so obviously we don't mind.
 
Old 09-06-2007, 10:11 PM
 
Location: In the Redwoods
30,286 posts, read 51,748,879 times
Reputation: 23658
Quote:
Originally Posted by sun View Post
You don't need to answer my questions, especially after reading that you've never had a straight sexual experience for comparison and from which to provide an honest response.
However, I do want to comment with my opinion about what I've read. I've never really believed that most homosexuals are born that way, but I'm not really sure why I think that either. You said that you were shy, and had certain influences at a young age. It seems to me that there is a possibility that your heart learned to go pitter patter for males when you were very young, and thus maybe your libido was conditioned to respond to males that way, rather than to females. The fact that you said that you appreciated female companionship from 15 to 18, and were willing to get engaged and married shows that you wanted to at least try to have a straight relationship. But you were spurned, and then in conjunction with the previously conditioned patterns & urges for male sexual gratification, you quite trying to have a straight sexual relationship, and now you are celibate and admittedly lonely & unhappy.
I'm sorry that you were so shy when you were young.
Hmmmm. I see what you're saying with that, but I was shy and didn't turn gay - neither did most of my shy friends! I don't think it's that easy to "re-train" your libido, and you HAVE to have some innate attraction to the same sex... in my opinion, of course.

Fyi, most of the gay people I know feel they were born that way, and realized it at a young age. My "brother" (non-biological) dated girls all the way through high school, despite his attraction to men... so he did make an attempt, and just couldn't force himself to like women that way. He's somewhat attracted to them, and considers himself "bi-curious" but definitely prefers men. Oh, and people teased him about being gay in elementary school (before he knew what that was), so at least for him it was pre-wired from a very early age.
 
Old 09-07-2007, 01:59 PM
 
Location: Somewhere along the path to where I'd like to be.
2,180 posts, read 5,408,957 times
Reputation: 829
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omniscient View Post
You seem very knowledgeable, so I hope this doesn't come off sounding bad.

You do know that the Bible has been changed over many decades into someone else's own personal interpretation of what the scriptures actually say, right?
Well, that tends to be a controversial subject. The church would deny it. I can see how it might be possible that certain verses have been "altered" to reflect a personal bias. But the thing is, if there isn't some concrete proof that the Bible indeed said something different when written than what is currently believed, then I'm not likely to blindly accept that idea. I don't want to stake my life and salvation on a controversy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omniscient View Post
I can't quote anything that "might" make you feel better or for you to better examine because I'm not religious in any way, but I understand and accept the fact that others are. I have still studied many religions which brings up another question.

A lot of these religions say that others not of their faith are going to hell. So if that is the case then there is a flaw in that logic. If you're not Christian you're going to burn. If you're not Catholic you're going to burn. And so on and so forth.. what are you going to do, be a part of every religion? I doubt they would find that very "acceptable" at all. So, which religion is the right one? Are you willing to make that gamble?
I understand what you're saying - and this is going into a whole different subject, but I'll briefly respond anyway.

As anyone who has read my other posts would know, I struggle with the whole issue of "who is right, and who is wrong" when it comes to which Christian denomination holds the "real" truth and possesses correct doctrine. But keep in mind, that's just within Christianity. By no means do I accept any sort of validity in any other religion. The reason is because none of those other religions profess to worship a God that not only died, but was resurrected. And since there is a preponderance of data which supports the fact that Jesus lived, died and rose from the dead, I discount all other possibilities.

Again, this is an OT subject, so that would be better left for a different discussion in a separate thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omniscient View Post
-- Just as an aside note because I find you interesting as a person and want to know more that goes on in your head.. do you think because I am not religious that I am going to hell?
Thank you for the compliment, that I'm an interesting person. I appreciate that. I am indeed what many would consider to be an enigma. (See the title under my user name. )

The whole term "religious" actually rubs me the wrong way. It implies a system whereby people achieve enlightenment as a result of following some prescribed set of rules and rituals. I don't actually think Jesus intended to start a new religion. I think He simply came to show us HOW to live, and to die for us so that we wouldn't have to bear the punishment for our sins. He told us that God was spirit and that we were to worship Him in spirit. He gave us practical examples of how that is accomplished.....showing love and compassion to all, including our enemies, and by taking care of the poor, sick, need, widows, orphans, etc.

However I think I can infer by your question (and if I'm wrong, I apologize) that you simply don't subscribe to any sort of spiritual belief about God - would that be correct? So the thing is, as for your question, it's not for me to say if you're going to hell or not. What I DO know is that Jesus said He was the way, truth, and life, and that no man came to the Father but by Him [Jesus]. So to properly understand WHAT that meant, we need access to how the early believers understood it, and that is really only found by reading the writings of the early church fathers.
 
Old 09-07-2007, 04:23 PM
 
508 posts, read 1,669,547 times
Reputation: 427
Quote:
Originally Posted by WCRob View Post
In truth, I keep fluctuating. There are moments of great clarity when I affirm one position over another, and then quite literally later the same day I will see something differently, or some "bump" will come along that throws me off, and I will be back at square one. That's why this is a struggle for me. It's a daily thing. I live this EVERY DAY.

Alcoholism, drug addiction, lust, health problems, stress, bad bosses - whatever personal vice or daily struggle that people deal with, none of it actually compares to this because in some way or another, those things are either harmful or plain old annoying and able to be dealt with. Not permitting me to have a loving, committed, monogamous, intimate relationship with someone that feels natural to me (not forced) and fulfilling (not shallow and lacking) cuts to the very core of who I am.

A lot of times I feel so alone in this, you know? I told Jeff the other night that I feel like I'm drowning sometimes. For all the struggles that straight people might have to put up with, at the end of the day - if they want it - they can turn to another human being and asked to be held and loved. They can get lost in that person's eyes, or in that person's smile, or that person's love - even to the extent of the physical expression of that love. They have the human touch of a very special person in their life that is theirs alone and no one else's.

And I don't have that. And I constantly face being told I'm not allowed to have that. So I don't know what to say sometimes. Or how to feel. Many times I'm afraid to feel anything. Sometimes when I go out shopping or wherever, if I see a good-looking guy, I'm faced with one of two options.....either look at him, and feel damned guilty as hell. Or I stare at the ground the entire time I'm out. Because I'm afraid if I allow myself to look at them, it might stir up a bunch of anger and other feelings that I get freakin' fed up with dealing with.

You know, it wasn't long ago - just a few months back - when I was literally BEGGING God to make me blind. Physically blind. I would rather be BLIND than to deal with this anymore.

To get back to what you asked, for now I have told God that I believe homosexuality is wrong. I can't seem to reconcile it. I can't seem to find ANY answers about it, other than to simply take the safe road. I'd rather deal with this as a cross to bear for the rest of my life as opposed to going to hell because I was deceived. But I want to note, all of my answers in this thread still hold true.



Must be the writer in me. Thanks for the kind words!
Quote:
Originally Posted by WCRob View Post
brittZ, while I know I repped you for this post - and those reps still stand , because I truly appreciate what you've said - I got to thinking about this a bit, and I was wondering if you could go ahead and tell me WHY you don't agree with whatever it is I said that you don't agree with. Thanks!

In fact, I'd really be interested in hearing why ANYBODY doesn't agree with something I've said. I can deal with it, so long as you don't accuse me of NOT being a Christian. I don't know if I'm just missing something, or what. I realize so many of you will refer to the Biblical passages, but that doesn't work because as I've said, there are so many differing opinions about those verses and what they actually refer to. Or....if you could tell me why those theologians and different opinions are flawed, I'd be more than willing to hear what you say.

Thanks.
In the moments you share when you realize homosexuality is wrong, I agree with you. It is in the times where you affirm (or have in the past) homosexuality, that my theology does not agree with yours. On sexual issues, I am very conservative. I tend to take the bible literally in black and white on these issues. That does not mean that I take the attitude of, "well your homosexual so you cant know God and you cant be a Christian." I take the attitude of well your homosexual. You have every capacity to be a Christian that obese gluttonous people, or adulterous people, or violent people, etc. . . have. As you say it is a cross to bear, and in the case of homosexuality it must be a lonely cross. I cannot understand what it is like to be gay, but I do know what it is like to be lonely and to feel like you have no one to share your life with. It is an empty vaccant hole in your heart and soul. For that, I am sorry you have to bear such emptiness, but I commend you for your strength.

I guess where I see that I might disagree with you, (at times because it seems your views have really changed) or anyone else, for that matter, is in order to truly accept Christ one must acknowledge their sins as God has defined them. Unfortunately for many people, sins are often not recognizable, or can somehow be justified in a multitude of ways. This does not mean someone needs to be sin free, that isn't possible, only that one must recognize, repent, and struggle to resolve their sins before God. No one can honestly stand and say, "I am Christian; I have accepted Christ into my life, " and then directly disobey the commands of Christ. It just doesn't work that way. We will all slip and fumble along the way, but the key is to not make the same mistakes once you know and master them and to seek out help to master the sins which you cannot master on your own.

How do you know when you have mastered something like homosexuality? I don't know, but it starts with God and a true, strong desire to please him. I do know that much.
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