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Old 02-09-2012, 05:20 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mind over Chatter View Post
It's interesting that when people go to hell and come back during an NDE, from what I have seen they always say that they deserved it and they are changed by the experience. Meaning they search for God and how to stay out of there. That tells me that our minds are clearer in the afterlife, in that we have a better perspective on our lives and how we lived in this life.

Once I see God, or know the holiness of God, I will better know how depraved I really was on earth. Meaning how depraved the natural man is. It's not a persons works that gets them to hell, it's their natural depravity. We are condemned already from the time of the age of consent, whenever that is. Sure different people do different bad things, but everyone does bad things and has bad thoughts, even of hatred and murder, even if they don't act on them.
Yes but does that deserve an eternity of punishment? What's the point? I understand the idea of correcting out of love, but isn't that just revenge?

What about people like Bill Weiss who go to hell and then write a book about it (which also earns him a hefty sum)?
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Old 02-09-2012, 05:25 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
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There is no eternal torment, that's wishful thinking on the part of fundamentalist Christians. However, if, and that's a BIG if, there is an afterlife I think the punishment would fit the crime, not unlike our own judicial system. That may mean non-existence for the worst of the lot but that's a whole lot better than an eternity of "hell".
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Old 02-09-2012, 05:32 AM
 
Location: TN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
Yes but does that deserve an eternity of punishment? What's the point? I understand the idea of correcting out of love, but isn't that just revenge?

What about people like Bill Weiss who go to hell and then write a book about it (which also earns him a hefty sum)?
Like I said when people go to hell and come back, they say that they deserved it. How are we going to say they don't if they say they do? That's like trying to save someone from the death penalty when the person being put to death says that they deserve to die and will kill again if we don't kill them. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

If God says they deserve it and the people that go to hell come back and say they deserved it, then who are we to say they don't?
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Old 02-09-2012, 05:42 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,606 posts, read 55,909,146 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mind over Chatter View Post
Like I said when people go to hell and come back, they say that they deserved it. How are we going to say they don't if they say they do? That's like trying to save someone from the death penalty when the person being put to death says that they deserve to die and will kill again if we don't kill them. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

If God says they deserve it and the people that go to hell come back and say they deserved it, then who are we to say they don't?
The only people who seem to believe they deserve hell are those who believe they're not going there.

The vast majority of OBE's/NDE's seem to be of Heaven - many by non born again Christians. Are we to believe they, too, went to Heaven?
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Old 02-09-2012, 05:43 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,606 posts, read 55,909,146 times
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Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
There is no eternal torment, that's wishful thinking on the part of fundamentalist Christians. However, if, and that's a BIG if, there is an afterlife I think the punishment would fit the crime, not unlike our own judicial system. That may mean non-existence for the worst of the lot but that's a whole lot better than an eternity of "hell".
Yeah I think the idea of hell only exists as people want it...for others, of course.

Why are people so obsessed with punishment and suffering? Have we changed that much from breaking on the wheel, burning at the stake, quartering?
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Old 02-09-2012, 05:51 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
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Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
Yeah I think the idea of hell only exists as people want it...for others, of course.

Why are people so obsessed with punishment and suffering? Have we changed that much from breaking on the wheel, burning at the stake, quartering?
It seems to me that a lot of these Christians who believe in ET are drooling and wringing their hands in delight that most people will burn for eternity. Even as a fundamentalist I detested the ET belief and it was ultimately the beginning of the end of faith for me. Universalism is the only acceptable form of Christianity out there and their God doesn't torture people forever.

It's really sick and twisted this obsession, as you say, of punishment and suffering for the unbelieving. But I guess you're right, some people are not too far removed from burning at the stake....I think there are some who would revel in that too.
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Old 02-09-2012, 06:03 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,606 posts, read 55,909,146 times
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Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
It seems to me that a lot of these Christians who believe in ET are drooling and wringing their hands in delight that most people will burn for eternity. Even as a fundamentalist I detested the ET belief and it was ultimately the beginning of the end of faith for me. Universalism is the only acceptable form of Christianity out there and their God doesn't torture people forever.

It's really sick and twisted this obsession, as you say, of punishment and suffering for the unbelieving. But I guess you're right, some people are not too far removed from burning at the stake....I think there are some who would revel in that too.
Some...many, probably most genuine Christians are pretty heartbroken over the prospect of most going to Hell. Even as they struggle with it they try to justify it, because they were taught it's totally Biblical. Their thoughts and beliefs conform to what they believe the Bible teaches. So such ideas as people choosing to go to hell arise, even if said person has never even heard of the Biblical God or Jesus.

There were periods in the past where Christians seemed to relish the idea of evildoers and heathens spending eternity in hell.
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Old 02-09-2012, 06:05 AM
 
9,229 posts, read 8,519,215 times
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Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
...is there any amount of evil that justifies being sent to such a place?

Does Hitler deserve it?
Does John Wayne Gacy deserve it?
Does George W. Bush deserve it?
If you are truly practicing a spiritual path you will come to know that the only judgment that concerns you is yours. What others do is between them and their God.

In time you will grow to understand that God's love shines down on ALL. Each of us that you choose to vilify is cut from the same cloth that you were, and their choices came from a lack of understanding about life that is not different than your lack of understanding -- their choices were just different. You cannot ever understand what drove their choices. You are not God.

What is truly significant for your path is not to notice what others' choices are, but your choices, and whether you respond to others with compassion, nurturing, and joy.
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Old 02-09-2012, 06:43 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,831 posts, read 11,596,878 times
Reputation: 58253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
Some...many, probably most genuine Christians are pretty heartbroken over the prospect of most going to Hell. Even as they struggle with it they try to justify it, because they were taught it's totally Biblical. Their thoughts and beliefs conform to what they believe the Bible teaches. So such ideas as people choosing to go to hell arise, even if said person has never even heard of the Biblical God or Jesus.

There were periods in the past where Christians seemed to relish the idea of evildoers and heathens spending eternity in hell.
I suppose, if they are genuine. I wasn't just heartbroken, I was tortured by it and that's just NOT the way it's supposed to be. If there is a God, he would not want us to be in agony over such a teaching, I just know it. I see LookingforMayberry is of the "pay attention to what you're doing and not others" belief.....that's so typical. It's simply a way of trying to cope with such a horrific belief. It doesn't fly. None of it.
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Old 02-09-2012, 06:56 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,606 posts, read 55,909,146 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
I suppose, if they are genuine. I wasn't just heartbroken, I was tortured by it and that's just NOT the way it's supposed to be. If there is a God, he would not want us to be in agony over such a teaching, I just know it. I see LookingforMayberry is of the "pay attention to what you're doing and not others" belief.....that's so typical. It's simply a way of trying to cope with such a horrific belief. It doesn't fly. None of it.
My grandmother is a Buddhist. I remember my parents being so desperate to convert her because they didn't want her to go to the 'Lake of Fire.' I thought of her life - how she was born into poverty, forced into a marriage with a man who abused her, had to labour just to support herself and her children, raise 10 children over a period of 20 years...I knew that worshiping idols offended God, but it did seem harsh that she would have to spend eternity in hell. I remember always asking my parents what about those who had never heard of the Gospel. I heard the idea that God would somehow show himself to them (despite the fact evangelism is still necessary) - although how it all worked wasn't clear.

I don't think Conditionalism takes away from the evangelical imperative. Indeed, is eternal life worthless compared to the fear of eternal torment?
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