The Withdrawal from Religion. (Mormon, genesis, myth, church)

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by Mickiel

The mind and body suffers severely during withdrawal, because it has gotten use to what you have been doing, its now " Habitual." The habit does not want to die within you; it wants to live, because now it has a life of its own.

Sam Harris has a recent blog entry on this very subject which I thought was really very good. He tried to make the atheist understand how the theist feels when being told their ideas are baseless and wrong. In order to do this he takes something that is dear to many people and explains exactly what is horrifically bad about it. His intention is that the atheist will spend time examining how this makes them feel, and realize that this is exactly what we are dealing with in our discussions with theists.

Originally Posted by Mickiel

And that withdrawal has been without question, one of the most stressful, freeing experiences I have ever had to suffer through.

You might be interested to watch, read or even go see Julia Sweeneys "Letting go of god". It is all over you tube too. She is talking about how she realised she did not think there was a god any more and what that passage was like. She tells it in a very moving and honest way.

Now while you did not lose the idea of god, I think you still likely will feel an affinity for much of what she says and describes in her story.

[Mickiel]

Originally Posted by catman

Praying "just in case" is simply another spin on Pascal's Wager. As an atheist, I cannot imagine doing that. For one thing, if one thinks there is a god who insists that one believes in it before doing the supplicant any favors such as answering prayers, it's not going to work. I can't trick myself into thinking it has any efficacy in any case.

I don't know, you get put in the right situation, it just may squezze a prayer out of you.

Of course you wouldnot have to tell anybody.

[NoCapo]

Originally Posted by Mickiel

I don't know, you get put in the right situation, it just may squezze a prayer out of you.

Of course you wouldnot have to tell anybody.

It is possible I guess. I also might invoke the name of a deity during in intimate moment with my spouse, or call down divine maledictions upon an inanimate object that has ceased to function correctly.

In none of the above scenarios am I actually attempting to communicate with an entity that I do not believe to exist. The are all just expressions of strong emotions like frustration, desire, or fear that have been shaped by the culture I live in.

This seems an awful lot like the old canard, "There are no atheists in foxholes." Not only are there atheists in foxholes, sometimes the experience creates atheists out of believers. Extreme stress and trauma can cause anyone to rethink any set of beliefs. It can also root or ground currently held beliefs more firmly.

NoCapo

[claud605]

As soon as I withdrew from religion, I became closer to God. I've been saying for years "This is NOT what Jesus/Buddha/Mohammed/whoever MEANT!!!"

[Mickiel]

Originally Posted by NoCapo

It is possible I guess. I also might invoke the name of a deity during in intimate moment with my spouse, or call down divine maledictions upon an inanimate object that has ceased to function correctly.

NoCapo

I have never understood that, yet its of intrest. The denial of a beings existance, yet the invoking of his name during intimate times. Really this speaks volumes to me. Its like a leader of a country being at war with America; but then during intimate private moments, he screams out " America!"

You just can't hide from intensified Tide!

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Not sure what is hard to understand. Words have cultural and literal meanings. NoCapo is talking about using words in the former rather than the latter. I too am not immune to exclaiming "Jesus" or "Oh god" in times of duress or surprise, nor can I think of a reason not to.

Much of our history has been intertwined with religion and hence much of our language is too. That some language can be used non literally in such situations as described by NoCapo is no surprise at all.

If it worried you at all then you better start doing a lot of changing in your life. Start renaming the days for a start. I assume you do not believe in Thor or Moon gods or the god Saturn. Yet you still call these days Monday, Thursday and Saturday.

[Mickiel]

In the withdrawal from religion, belief in God must be seperated from belief in Religion. Religion is a search for the divine; your search was at first from within religion; but religion has a tendecy to dictate terms of that search. It compartmentalizes doctrines and seeks to control the flow of information. It is steep in tradition and practices condemnation. Yet many are comfortable letting this sway them daily.

I just couldnot do it any longer; I had to be free enough to let my consciousness flow on its own, in whatever direction it was really being led. Its like getting off of a bus, and deciding to walk; It may be more difficult, but its ultimately freeing, and you'll still get where your going.

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by Mickiel

In the withdrawal from religion, belief in God must be seperated from belief in Religion. Religion is a search for the divine; your search was at first from within religion

Not clear who you are replying to with your "Your search was..." given you did not quote anyone but since the last post was from me I assume you are replying to me, despite twice claiming you would not be today alone.

However I would correct you. I was never religious so my "search" was never constrained by religion. I have simply asked if there is any arguments, evidence, data or reasons on offer to think there is a god at all, regardless of the religion, and there is not as far as I can see.

[Mickiel]

In the withdrawal from religion, we enter into a period of sickness first; Religion made you sick, and your sick of it! Its a type of awakening! Understand that the sickness is ultimately good for you; your in withdrawal. Don't go to the extremes, just work your way out of the withdrawal; your going to hurt, but its going to help. Your cutting off one of the main influences in your life, and there will be consequences!

[SuperSoul]

Originally Posted by Mickiel

In the withdrawal from religion, belief in God must be seperated from belief in Religion. Religion is a search for the divine; your search was at first from within religion; but religion has a tendecy to dictate terms of that search. It compartmentalizes doctrines and seeks to control the flow of information. It is steep in tradition and practices condemnation. Yet many are comfortable letting this sway them daily.

I just couldnot do it any longer; I had to be free enough to let my consciousness flow on its own, in whatever direction it was really being led. Its like getting off of a bus, and deciding to walk; It may be more difficult, but its ultimately freeing, and you'll still get where your going.

I've really enjoyed your posts, Michiel. I can relate a lot.
I grew up in a very life-encompasing religion... (Mormon)... cult-like in the sense that if you question or try to leave, your life will be made hell (in addition to the internal stress of withdrawal you mentioned). I still go to church as agreement with my DH & to raise our kids with religion & so my kids are not shunned (since we are literally surrounded by Mormons). But I teach my kids other interpretations... mainly that the scriptures are NOT history books, they are intended to be spiritual books with moral lessons... like Aesop's Fables.

I may have some withdrawing still to do, but I've come to realize that everything is illusion... Religion is like a coping method, not too different from addictions. Life is a very temporary game! The illusion is that we think it's so seriously real and lasting when it's not! So, some people get together and cheer for their team (as if they are doing anything to win or lose)... and others get together to praise saints (as if the feelings they feel are outside of them). Religion can be a spiritual tool, but if taken too extreme or if authorities screw it up (by insisting you prioritize their way above God/GOoD), it can hinder emotional & spiritual progress. God is LOVE... Attraction...what makes us all do what we do. We are social creatures and we need each other practically & for mental health. So, what makes more sense than worshiping religion is to "love others as ourselves."