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Nice to know you care, but I still wince a bit when I see ANY group rolled up and reduced into a set of stereotypes by ANYONE. All black people don't steal watermelons, all Jews aren't cheap, and all Christians are not anti-abortion/birth control, nor do they all believe women are subordinate to men.
Yes, plenty of what you say above exists out there, (and in higher percentages than the ridiculous stereotypes I provided for comparison) but it would be nice if once in a while some of the anti-Christian folks would acknowledge the efforts of those Christian communities who have fought forever for the rights of women and who ordain them as clergy and respect women as leaders in the church. Support of those efforts would be nice rather than pretending they don't exist just to make a point. Christianity, like all of life, is complex and varied. Thanks.
Thank you for being able to articulate things in a way that I would not have been able to.
Just like racism, sexism is also still prevalent. Some women just assume the role because that's how they were taught. There are still many women that are ok with finding a man to have kids with and being a housewife. Some women don't care, some don't embrace it due to lack of intellectual stimulation, and some are fighting, but you can't change society overnight.
Okay, wait a minute. Are y'all saying it's wrong for a woman to choose to stay home and raise her children. To be the more nuturing one in the family? To choose to allow the husband to be the breadwinner? To lead the family, if he is good at doing it?
I just can't see those things as wrong.
God forbid a woman put her children before her career. Y'all just blow my mind sometimes.
It's not wrong to want a career and it's not wrong to want to allow the man to be in charge.
Whatever works for each couple is what works for them.
Here we go judging those who make different choices from our own again.
I think you've got your answer in what I bolded; however, maybe it would be more accurate to say the interpretation of what is in the writings. For example, in the Genesis story (and for the record, I am not a believer that this is a literal story or that the bible itself is meant to be seen as one work/literal/infallible), after the man and woman disobey their Creator, the Creator outlines some negative things that will now happen because of their disobedience: Childbirth will be painful, they will labor hard to get their food, and the man will rule over the woman. Instead of viewing this story as negatives that will happen as the result of disobedience, some have made the interpretation that God is herewith ordaining men to rule over women. Call me crazy, but my guess is that such an interpretation was made by the males within that particular culture.
Religions are usually adapted to the cultures in which they land. Some years ago (and pre-9/11) I saw an interview on television of a woman who was in Turkey's Parliament. She was a Muslim. She was discussing how Islam itself does not denigrate women, but that Islam has often been adopted into male-dominated cultures, and the religion was used to reinforce those pre-existing beliefs of male superiority. Hence, a Muslim woman serving in Parliament in Turkey was not unusual, whereas in Saudi Arabia, or worse, Afghanistan, it would not be tolerated.
The same thing happens with Christianity. It came out of the same part of the world and a similar culture as Islam. In the earliest years of the religion, women were very involved in the leadership of the church, and in fact, there are a number of women whose leadership was significant in church history. However, I wonder if, as Christianity spread, a reverse occurred--where the religion was used to influence the culture to make it male-dominated if it wasn't that way previously. I don't know, but I would find it interesting to look into, particularly as to cultures in pre-Christian Europe, for example.
I sometimes buy old magazines at estate sales, and the advertisements are the most interesting and telling parts of the publications. I think most younger folks would be shocked to learn just how short a time it has been since the idea of women as equals has been part of American culture. I once met the woman who wrote the very first article to be published in a national magazine about the phenomenon of domestic abuse against women that went unpunished and in fact was protected from punishment by law enforcement due to the fact that the crimes were perpetuated by males against females (yes, sometimes females abuse men, but in 99.9% of the cases, women were the victims). That article appeared in 1976. Only since then have laws been changed requiring the arrest of a wife batterer.
Ptsum, I'm glad your culture has not been tainted by wrongful idea of male superiority. I'm wondering--in cases where American Indians have converted to/adopted Christianity, does the equality still hold? I suppose that would depend upon what Christian tradition is followed, of course.
Mightyqueen, I have always been an admirer of strong minded women, women of independent thinking, women who are not afraid to show their intellect, women who are not afraid to stand up for their rights as human beings. In my culture women are regarded very highly and are very highly respected. Even this old warrior has the highest respect for a woman by the name of Wilma Pearl Mankiller, she became the very first woman to be elected Principle Chief of the Cherokee Nation in 1983 and retired from public office in 1995, she served for 12 years and when she passed away on April 6, 2010 the Cherokee Nation lost a very brave and respected woman.
Okay, wait a minute. Are y'all saying it's wrong for a woman to choose to stay home and raise her children. To be the more nuturing one in the family? To choose to allow the husband to be the breadwinner? To lead the family, if he is good at doing it?
I just can't see those things as wrong.
God forbid a woman put her children before her career. Y'all just blow my mind sometimes.
It's not wrong to want a career and it's not wrong to want to allow the man to be in charge.
Whatever works for each couple is what works for them.
Here we go judging those who make different choices from our own again.
I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with a woman making the choice to be a wife and mother, however I think that choice should be hers and that no one should force her into making that choice, whether it be her religion, her family, or anyone else telling her that she has to make these choices, those choices should be hers and hers alone. She should have the same rights as any man in making those choices.
If I have a question and this question is mostly targeted to the women of this Forum: My question is that I would like to know why women today are allowing themselves to be treated as second class citizens by the Christian religion. Now let me explain the way I see it, for almost 100 years women have marched and fought to be treated as equals, in the 20s they finally got the right to vote, in the 60s women demonstrated and marched for equal rights, not only for themselves but for everyone and now today women are still being treated as second class citizens in this country by the Christian religion. They are being told that they can't have abortions and at the same time they'er being told that they can't use any form of birth control by an organization that is strictly run by men, I think that is wrong. So when are women going to stand up against the hierarchy of all the different Christian religions and take control of their own destinies? Like I said this is just my opinion and the way I see things today. Women deserve a lot better than that.
Maybe you are right, maybe men should have to submit to women, submit to their needs, have no voice in the church, pay the bills, just basically have the woman take over responsibility of the family, be the sole provider, yea that would work, I don't see any problems.
Yeah me too, absolutely mind-blowing. I've never cowed down to any crap a "man" has tried to suppress me with and I never will. I could have so been a leader of the women's rights movement in the 60's but I was too young.
It would simply take a united front of all women against this nonsense but some are so indoctrinated, beat down and abused that they feel trapped with no way out. I understand that but the strong should stand up for the weak and get this ignorance and backwardness taken care of already!
Thanks for bringing up this topic Ptsum. It's important to a lot of us.
Most Christian men don't give women "crap". What they are taught is to love women like Christ loved the church and give our lives for them. Women submit to the spiritual authority of men willingly because we give them that love. Women love that men take the lead in spiritual matters.
If I have a question and this question is mostly targeted to the women of this Forum: My question is that I would like to know why women today are allowing themselves to be treated as second class citizens by the Christian religion. Now let me explain the way I see it, for almost 100 years women have marched and fought to be treated as equals, in the 20s they finally got the right to vote, in the 60s women demonstrated and marched for equal rights, not only for themselves but for everyone and now today women are still being treated as second class citizens in this country by the Christian religion. They are being told that they can't have abortions and at the same time they'er being told that they can't use any form of birth control by an organization that is strictly run by men, I think that is wrong. So when are women going to stand up against the hierarchy of all the different Christian religions and take control of their own destinies? Like I said this is just my opinion and the way I see things today. Women deserve a lot better than that.
As you know ptsum...the many differing cultures and traditions that have existed/exist in the world manifests in that there are many different "ways".
It plays out with the roles of some segments of a society being viewed as different relative to another segment of the society...gender to gender, the young to the old, the different races, the rich to the poor, those who are influential/in power to those less influential and not in power, etc. There is ALWAYS a "pecking order" of some sort.
In a perfect world ALL would be seen as equals...but that is not the "way" the world in general has been, is now, or is ever going to be.
We can only control our own view and attitude toward others.
Okay, wait a minute. Are y'all saying it's wrong for a woman to choose to stay home and raise her children. To be the more nuturing one in the family? To choose to allow the husband to be the breadwinner? To lead the family, if he is good at doing it?
I just can't see those things as wrong.
God forbid a woman put her children before her career. Y'all just blow my mind sometimes.
It's not wrong to want a career and it's not wrong to want to allow the man to be in charge.
Whatever works for each couple is what works for them.
Here we go judging those who make different choices from our own again.
Hahaha, I don't know who is included in your "y'all", but no, of course it's not wrong to choose to live that kind of life. As a matter of fact, I would have chosen to be a SAHM if such a choice had been available to me. My child always came before my job!!!
We are talking about the idea of inequality and the wrongful notion that one gender has dominion over the other.
Last edited by Mightyqueen801; 02-10-2012 at 03:53 PM..
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