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ptsum, perhaps people are all different, and should be treated differently... according to their individual needs. The women of these Christian sects we are talking about probably don't feel oppressed, but catered to. Although it might be true that they are brought up to be different by the system itself, they have already grown accustomed to it. There are plenty of women who want to be treated equally that they can join if ever these Christian women change their minds. Women, within WASP society especially, are usually weaker and more delicate then men in general anyway, biologically. There are pleanty of escapes for women who don't want to remain in a sect with second class status, it is their own fault if they do not choose to escape. Although, these escapes might be risky or dangerous... So I can see sometimes the dilemma. Still, Women are going to stand up when ever they want to.
Yeah tell that to the millions of Muslim women with no rights, or the teenagers married off in fundamentalists sects, to men 3 times their age
The issue is with radical (right-wing) Christianity NOT Christianity as a whole.
The Catholic church is the one that considers birth control a "deadly Sin"(but Priests diddling little boys seems to be okay), this is so they keep tight control over females and keep the pews filled with the offspring and the coffers filled.
The radical end of many religions consider females below the ox in the field.
In Judaism females are considered ABOVE males in some aspects of life.
Yeah tell that to the millions of Muslim women with no rights, or the teenagers married off in fundamentalists sects, to men 3 times their age
You know nothing about oppression of women.
You don't have to go that far, I know a couple where she is willingly subservient to her husband. She is a highly skilled operating room nurse, yet in the presence of her husband, you would think she had the IQ of a mouse.
We knew them through an organization her husband and I were members of. My wife was absolutely stunned at her self-deprecating attitude when she tried to engage her in conversation at a social event the organization held.
It also sets off alarm bells when I try to imagine a man that would want such a "servant" mentality for a life partner. How mind numbingly void such a relationship would be. What a selfish self center bore he must be, wanting nothing but a cook, house cleaner, and concubine that is train not to say, not tonight.
I do understand that not all Christians are the same and I mean no disrespect towards anyone's belief system, but throughout the majority of Christianity's teachings you're taught that women are to be subservient to men, which is somethin I do not quite understand as an American Indian. Women are as equal as men are if not more so, men have the right to determine their own destiny, no one tells us what to do or what not to do, we are the ones over many centuries that have made the rules so why is it that women cannot be treated the same? Do they not deserve our respect as well, do they not deserve the right to make their own determinations or is it just because of some story that was written by men in the Christian sacred book that there is the mindset that women are to be treated as second class people. I do not believe so, I believe men and women are equal to one another and should be treated as such and not because some religious belief says differently.
I think you've got your answer in what I bolded; however, maybe it would be more accurate to say the interpretation of what is in the writings. For example, in the Genesis story (and for the record, I am not a believer that this is a literal story or that the bible itself is meant to be seen as one work/literal/infallible), after the man and woman disobey their Creator, the Creator outlines some negative things that will now happen because of their disobedience: Childbirth will be painful, they will labor hard to get their food, and the man will rule over the woman. Instead of viewing this story as negatives that will happen as the result of disobedience, some have made the interpretation that God is herewith ordaining men to rule over women. Call me crazy, but my guess is that such an interpretation was made by the males within that particular culture.
Religions are usually adapted to the cultures in which they land. Some years ago (and pre-9/11) I saw an interview on television of a woman who was in Turkey's Parliament. She was a Muslim. She was discussing how Islam itself does not denigrate women, but that Islam has often been adopted into male-dominated cultures, and the religion was used to reinforce those pre-existing beliefs of male superiority. Hence, a Muslim woman serving in Parliament in Turkey was not unusual, whereas in Saudi Arabia, or worse, Afghanistan, it would not be tolerated.
The same thing happens with Christianity. It came out of the same part of the world and a similar culture as Islam. In the earliest years of the religion, women were very involved in the leadership of the church, and in fact, there are a number of women whose leadership was significant in church history. However, I wonder if, as Christianity spread, a reverse occurred--where the religion was used to influence the culture to make it male-dominated if it wasn't that way previously. I don't know, but I would find it interesting to look into, particularly as to cultures in pre-Christian Europe, for example.
I sometimes buy old magazines at estate sales, and the advertisements are the most interesting and telling parts of the publications. I think most younger folks would be shocked to learn just how short a time it has been since the idea of women as equals has been part of American culture. I once met the woman who wrote the very first article to be published in a national magazine about the phenomenon of domestic abuse against women that went unpunished and in fact was protected from punishment by law enforcement due to the fact that the crimes were perpetuated by males against females (yes, sometimes females abuse men, but in 99.9% of the cases, women were the victims). That article appeared in 1976. Only since then have laws been changed requiring the arrest of a wife batterer.
Ptsum, I'm glad your culture has not been tainted by wrongful idea of male superiority. I'm wondering--in cases where American Indians have converted to/adopted Christianity, does the equality still hold? I suppose that would depend upon what Christian tradition is followed, of course.
ptsum, perhaps people are all different, and should be treated differently... according to their individual needs. The women of these Christian sects we are talking about probably don't feel oppressed, but catered to. Although it might be true that they are brought up to be different by the system itself, they have already grown accustomed to it. There are plenty of women who want to be treated equally that they can join if ever these Christian women change their minds. Women, within WASP society especially, are usually weaker and more delicate then men in general anyway, biologically. There are pleanty of escapes for women who don't want to remain in a sect with second class status, it is their own fault if they do not choose to escape. Although, these escapes might be risky or dangerous... So I can see sometimes the dilemma. Still, Women are going to stand up when ever they want to.
I am of Dutch and English descent and Episcopalian to boot. Pretty much the description of WASP (though without the wealth the term often implies). I am also six feet, one-half inch tall, and at 53 years of age can still lift the five-gallon bottle of water into the water cooler all by myself. I divorced my abusive, six-foot-four alkie husband not because I was afraid of him, but partly because I began to fear that I would kill HIM.
Perhaps I'm an exception, but your description made me laugh out loud for real.
The issue is with radical (right-wing) Christianity NOT Christianity as a whole.
The Catholic church is the one that considers birth control a "deadly Sin"(but Priests diddling little boys seems to be okay), this is so they keep tight control over females and keep the pews filled with the offspring and the coffers filled.
The radical end of many religions consider females below the ox in the field.
In Judaism females are considered ABOVE males in some aspects of life.
Again, it would be good if we could keep the discussion on the level and free of silly stereotypes. The pedophile-priest thing in Catholicism is definitely NOT OK to Catholics, and the percentage of Catholic priests who actually fit that description is miniscule.
It's interesting. I started going to a Fundamentalist Christian church when I was 14, but my mom is a pretty staunch Democrat. No one there knew that, of course. I was a member of a Southern Baptist Church, and I was still adamantly pro-choice. I missed some lesson somewhere, I guess. I never bought into any of the anti-abortion arguments. I did loosely support the ban on stem cell research, but that changed when I girl I was close to began to suffer liver failure. She educated me on the potential wonders of stem cells.
My saving grace was my mom, her liberal outlook on life. Without her, I think I would have been sucked into more of the SBC's teachings and ideology. Her grandma was a force also. She always voted and drilled into my mom's head the importance of voting. My grandma was 32 years old when women gained the right to vote so women's rights have been important to my family for four generations. The arguments we are seeing in the news now infuriate me, and I lack the ability to empathize with these people.
I started off as a 13 year old in a fundamentalist sect-like church where they taught women's subservience to men. By the time I was 16 I identified very strongly with feminism and that outweighed any further churches teachings on women's roles.
My subsequent path through christianity never changed my feminist views which were never particularly radical. I just knew I was never going to play second fiddle to any man.
The church has, for millions of years, controlled women. I feel very lucky I was born in the 20th century and had so many more choices.
If I have a question and this question is mostly targeted to the women of this Forum: My question is that I would like to know why women today are allowing themselves to be treated as second class citizens by the Christian religion. Now let me explain the way I see it, for almost 100 years women have marched and fought to be treated as equals, in the 20s they finally got the right to vote, in the 60s women demonstrated and marched for equal rights, not only for themselves but for everyone and now today women are still being treated as second class citizens in this country by the Christian religion. They are being told that they can't have abortions and at the same time they'er being told that they can't use any form of birth control by an organization that is strictly run by men, I think that is wrong. So when are women going to stand up against the hierarchy of all the different Christian religions and take control of their own destinies? Like I said this is just my opinion and the way I see things today. Women deserve a lot better than that.
Muslims are against abortions as well.
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