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Old 02-11-2012, 06:35 PM
 
Location: Warren, Michigan
5,298 posts, read 2,042,827 times
Reputation: 191

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I have given the thread " The 100 proofs of God" before , but have never took the time to go into each one in detail. So I'll attempt that here and we'll see what happens.

I am dismayed at the myth that God cannot be proven, because its inncorrect ; he most certainly can be proven. And without a serious doubt!

1. " Consciousness." Consciousness is the governor of our behavior and the source of our comprehension. It is almost a secret theater of speechless monologe and prevenient counsel, an invisible mansion of all moods, musings, and mysteries, an infinite resort of dissappointments and discoveries. A hidden hermitage where we may study out the troubled book of what we have done and yet may do.

Consciousness is a whole kingdom where each of us reigns reclusively alone , questioning what we will , commanding what we can. An introcosm that is more ourselves than anything we can find in a mirror.

But where did it come from? Where can this subjective experience which we introspect on, this constant companion of host of associations, thrills, hopes, fears, affections, knowledges, colors, smells, toothaches, tickles, pleasures, distresses and desires - where and how in evolution could all this wonderful tapestry of inner experience have evolved? How can we derive this inwardness out of mere matter? And if so, when?

Consciousness had to be passed down to humanity from a Conscious powewrful God. Our sympathy and identification with other living things , could not have evolved by emergant evolution; thats impossible! We can imagine what others are thinking, because our orgin lays in a thinking creator. The synaptic nervous system gives us the ability to read into the consciousness of others , by simple observation. These abilitys cannot develop in a human who never had them. The intellectual life of man , his culture , history , science and religion , is different from anythingelse we know of in the universe.

Consciousness couldnot have developed as random luck , or evolved from things far less in significance or complexity than it is itself.

It is thus a proof of God!

 
Old 02-11-2012, 06:48 PM
 
2,934 posts, read 1,391,320 times
Reputation: 591
Define your terms first. I know you have attempted a definition of Consciousness - but it appears biased towards proving your thesis. May we use an objective definition?

How about the Oxford English Dictionary:


noun
  • 1 [mass noun] the state of being aware of and responsive to one’s surroundings: she failed to regain consciousness and died two days later
  • 2 a person’s awareness or perception of something: her acute consciousness of Luke’s presence
    • the fact of awareness by the mind of itself and the world: consciousness emerges from the operations of the brain
Now, given we agree on these definitions - what about them specifically prevents them from arising through evolution? Is it safe to assume that you have thoroughly studied Evolutionary prinicples and read any pertinent literature pertaining to this very question (a good example being Robert Ornstein's Evolution of Consciousness: The Origins of the Way We Think, Simon & Schuster, 1992)? For if you have a faulty or biased understanding of Evolution, then your "proofs" will be severly biased and untenable.
 
Old 02-11-2012, 06:50 PM
Status: "Turpa pie reikä ääliö" (set 20 days ago)
 
8,563 posts, read 5,864,099 times
Reputation: 17916
There is no verifiable, reproducible evidence there are any gods.

Wishful thinking Micky.
 
Old 02-11-2012, 07:06 PM
 
Location: Ashburn, Va
3,233 posts, read 1,549,299 times
Reputation: 2913
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post

Consciousness couldnot have developed as random luck , or evolved from things far less in significance or complexity than it is itself.

Why not?
 
Old 02-11-2012, 08:00 PM
 
Location: Warren, Michigan
5,298 posts, read 2,042,827 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
Define your terms first. I know you have attempted a definition of Consciousness - but it appears biased towards proving your thesis. May we use an objective definition?

How about the Oxford English Dictionary:



noun
  • 1 [mass noun] the state of being aware of and responsive to one’s surroundings: she failed to regain consciousness and died two days later
  • 2 a person’s awareness or perception of something: her acute consciousness of Luke’s presence
    • the fact of awareness by the mind of itself and the world: consciousness emerges from the operations of the brain
Now, given we agree on these definitions - what about them specifically prevents them from arising through evolution? Is it safe to assume that you have thoroughly studied Evolutionary prinicples and read any pertinent literature pertaining to this very question (a good example being Robert Ornstein's Evolution of Consciousness: The Origins of the Way We Think, Simon & Schuster, 1992)? For if you have a faulty or biased understanding of Evolution, then your "proofs" will be severly biased and untenable.

Consciousness cannot create itself, it must be created. Consciousness is " A Spirit in humans", which is why it has no central location within the body; its just there! There is nothing physical in the body that we can call a conscious organ. There is nothing in the brain other than tissue of one sort or another. Nothing physical in man accounts for consciousness. Science has tried to masquerade the brain as the costume of consciousness , that is complettely false.

Consciousness is not psychological phenomena, or neuro-anatomy and chemistry. Consciousness is the breath of life that God blew into man's dead body. Consciousness is the image of God.
 
Old 02-11-2012, 08:08 PM
 
Location: Ohio
8,814 posts, read 3,973,136 times
Reputation: 4191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
I have given the thread " The 100 proofs of God" before , but have never took the time to go into each one in detail. So I'll attempt that here and we'll see what happens.

I am dismayed at the myth that God cannot be proven, because its inncorrect ; he most certainly can be proven. And without a serious doubt!

1. " Consciousness." Consciousness is the governor of our behavior and the source of our comprehension. It is almost a secret theater of speechless monologe and prevenient counsel, an invisible mansion of all moods, musings, and mysteries, an infinite resort of dissappointments and discoveries. A hidden hermitage where we may study out the troubled book of what we have done and yet may do.

Consciousness is a whole kingdom where each of us reigns reclusively alone , questioning what we will , commanding what we can. An introcosm that is more ourselves than anything we can find in a mirror.

But where did it come from? Where can this subjective experience which we introspect on, this constant companion of host of associations, thrills, hopes, fears, affections, knowledges, colors, smells, toothaches, tickles, pleasures, distresses and desires - where and how in evolution could all this wonderful tapestry of inner experience have evolved? How can we derive this inwardness out of mere matter? And if so, when?

Consciousness had to be passed down to humanity from a Conscious powewrful God. Our sympathy and identification with other living things , could not have evolved by emergant evolution; thats impossible! We can imagine what others are thinking, because our orgin lays in a thinking creator. The synaptic nervous system gives us the ability to read into the consciousness of others , by simple observation. These abilitys cannot develop in a human who never had them. The intellectual life of man , his culture , history , science and religion , is different from anythingelse we know of in the universe.

Consciousness couldnot have developed as random luck , or evolved from things far less in significance or complexity than it is itself.

It is thus a proof of God!
You make a lot of claims but haven't backed any of them up. You simply make assertions without proof i.e. "Consciousness couldnot have developed as random luck , or evolved from things far less in significance or complexity than it is itself"

For one you entire premise is flawed. There is no such thing as "randomness" because as Ive said before and will say again now, even the pattern a raindrop takes on it's journey down a window is not "random". The pattern will be determoned by many factors such as the density and weight of the drop itself, wind variables, even slight imperfections in the glass.

On to flaw number two. There is no such thing as "complexity", at least not in the objective sense. Complexity is subjective, an attribute to the observer and not what is being observed. What is complex to you may not be complex to me, and visa versa.

Thridly, you haven't proven there is a god, much less that conciousness can only come from one. You are putting the wagon before the horse so to speak.
 
Old 02-11-2012, 08:20 PM
 
Location: Tampa
1,137 posts, read 519,326 times
Reputation: 391
Human/jdaelectro : This is going to be a good thread.
God : Oh geez here we go again.

 
Old 02-11-2012, 08:38 PM
 
Location: Ohio
10,639 posts, read 5,956,185 times
Reputation: 6052
Consciousness is not proof of god.

Consciousness is merely self-awareness. Ego cogito, ergo sum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
...where and how in evolution could all this wonderful tapestry of inner experience have evolved?
It's called "memory." By your definition, even nematodes are conscious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
Consciousness had to be passed down to humanity from a Conscious powewrful God.
No. A better brain is all that was needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
Our sympathy and identification with other living things , could not have evolved by emergant evolution; thats impossible!
Sympathy is not something that evolves. Even dogs are sympathetic. When I'm frustrated, my dogs know that. They will not approach me directly, rather they will approach me indirectly, sneaking up on me (at least they think they are) and then they will sit or lay next to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
We can imagine what others are thinking, because our orgin lays in a thinking creator.
No, it's because some humans have the ability to interpret non-verbal cues and body language. However, not all humans have that ability. Some humans can take psychology classes and learn how to identify and interpret non-verbal cues and body language, and some humans can sit in the same classes and still just not get it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
The synaptic nervous system gives us the ability to read into the consciousness of others , by simple observation. These abilitys cannot develop in a human who never had them.
Um, all primates have that ability. Yes, I'm talking about gorillas, apes, monkeys, chimpanzees and the like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
Consciousness couldnot have developed as random luck , or evolved from things far less in significance or complexity than it is itself.
Yes, it could have evolved. The brain evolved. Humans evolved from one brain into two brains.

You might want to take some classes in human biology, physiology and psychology to get at least some understanding.

Consciously...


Mircea
 
Old 02-11-2012, 08:44 PM
 
2,043 posts, read 717,842 times
Reputation: 801
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
Consciousness cannot create itself, it must be created. Consciousness is " A Spirit in humans", which is why it has no central location within the body; its just there! There is nothing physical in the body that we can call a conscious organ. There is nothing in the brain other than tissue of one sort or another. Nothing physical in man accounts for consciousness. Science has tried to masquerade the brain as the costume of consciousness , that is complettely false.

Consciousness is not psychological phenomena, or neuro-anatomy and chemistry. Consciousness is the breath of life that God blew into man's dead body. Consciousness is the image of God.
I guess this is where we have an issue. First I am not sure that consciousness in humans is anything more and an improved and expanded version of the self awareness found in other animals. I see no reason why we should assume that our minds are different in kind from other animal as opposed to just a difference in degree.

Secondly, I would argue that we do have an organ of consciousness: our brain. We know that severe trauma to the brain can induce a vegetative state, which appear to display the lack of conscious thought. We don't know exactly what parts of the brain control this, or how, but we do have some broad understanding of what parts of the brain do what.

Lastly, even if we have a great many unanswered questions about the human mind, why is it logical to resort to the absolutely untestable, unfalsifiable notions of some supernatural soul created in the image of a supernatural deity? Why not just say we don't know and keep looking, instead of automatically assuming it is something beyond nature?

NoCapo
 
Old 02-11-2012, 08:52 PM
 
Location: Warren, Michigan
5,298 posts, read 2,042,827 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88 View Post
You make a lot of claims but haven't backed any of them up. You simply make assertions without proof i.e. "Consciousness couldnot have developed as random luck , or evolved from things far less in significance or complexity than it is itself"

For one you entire premise is flawed. There is no such thing as "randomness" because as Ive said before and will say again now, even the pattern a raindrop takes on it's journey down a window is not "random". The pattern will be determoned by many factors such as the density and weight of the drop itself, wind variables, even slight imperfections in the glass.

On to flaw number two. There is no such thing as "complexity", at least not in the objective sense. Complexity is subjective, an attribute to the observer and not what is being observed. What is complex to you may not be complex to me, and visa versa.

Thridly, you haven't proven there is a god, much less that conciousness can only come from one. You are putting the wagon before the horse so to speak.

Explain to me where Consciousness came from? Also I am not trying to prove God exist, I am giving my proofs which I accepted to be valid. They proved him to me.

And Speaking of complexity, thats no.2; Irreducible complexity. Evolution falsely claims that humans and animals, and everythingelse, slowly developed over long periods of time; which is unsound theory. And As time passed nature made changes and added what need to be added. The Austrailian termite is proof this is false , as is a thousand other creatures, including man. Certain living organisms cannot be simplified or reduced in complexity, and would have survived. The removal of any single part causes the system to cease functioning. Irreducible complex systems cannot be produced gradually, by slight successive modifications from a less complicated pre-condition. They must exist exactly as they are - whole - , or they cannot exist at all.

Evolution has no brain power, it is not alive, it has no intelligence; evolution is not a being, it is not consistant , it has no power of its own, its a theory!. Creation requires all that to be in place from conception. I now believe that God actually evolved primordal man, making changes and tinkering with them; but he never gave them consciousness. No human after Adam, the first man with Consciousness, has evolved. God ceased evolution of primordal humans after he died them out.

Evolution depends on magical matter that was produced from nothing; magical chemicals that produced themselves out of nothing; and the combination of those things eventually produced a human body that produced consciousness within itself - from physical componants mixed with those miracle chemicals. It does not make a bit of sense, the human body and consciousness is far too complexed to have been created from lesser materials that combined.
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