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Old 02-23-2012, 04:20 PM
 
Location: On the Edge of the Fringe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
But how likely do you believe that is to happen? When the same Mormon you're talking about became Governor, did he encourage everyone in Massachusetts to become Mormons?

I do not think it is likely at all. I was talking hypothetically
Our constitution would prevent any theocracy,

Sorry if I was too vague in the post
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Old 02-23-2012, 04:25 PM
 
889 posts, read 822,820 times
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I am so glad this thread took off. This was created as honey to get the dopes off my other thread.
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Old 02-23-2012, 04:31 PM
 
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We're not a theocracy, so this isn't even debatable. If we're getting technical, it doesn't matter anyway, because we're a democratic republic. Also, secular doesn't mean "Frothing at the mouth atheist".
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Old 02-23-2012, 04:59 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
27,997 posts, read 29,828,594 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LargeKingCat View Post
I do not think it is likely at all. I was talking hypothetically
Our constitution would prevent any theocracy,

Sorry if I was too vague in the post
No problem. Thanks for clarifying.
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Old 02-23-2012, 05:18 PM
 
Location: On the Edge of the Fringe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
No problem. Thanks for clarifying.
Thanks for pointing out my error.

Now consider this: Of the founding fathers, there was a notable difference in religious affiliation, ranging from Church of eEngland all the way to Deist and about eerything in between. However, most held a Christian affiliation. This would be expected, being that they were European descendants, and Europe in general had a higher percentage of Christian adherants in 1776 for example, than it does now. Most wre of English origins and many wre brought up in a system where there was an offical Christian church.
Looking at the most influential and well known of the founding fathers of our great nation, thre Jefferson, Franklin and Paine were deists who would openly espouse the futility of religion. (no wonder I admire those three so much)
They might have looked to England to see the problems that state supported/official religion can bring.

This nation was built on the premise that all can choose their faith. Or not choose it, because in America, choosing no religion is an option.

Funny how it is a few religious groups who cannot stand when they are the ones who are not "Chosen"
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Old 02-23-2012, 05:39 PM
 
278 posts, read 356,950 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodToBeHome View Post
What is our identity? Americans documents say our rights are from God and our laws seem to be Christian based.

What say you?
I believe that there are logical reasons for us to have the rights we do without any need to assume Hebrew Mythology to be true, and conservatives often give great arguments for us having the rights we do.

I want you to clarify when you say our rights come from God. How can our rights come simply from a person? How does this happen? That would be just as silly as saying your rights came from your parents, or your rights came from your king. They may be great moral people but rights don't just stem from someone's arbitrary opinion. I would think they would be independent of anyone's opinion.

I would think we have rights either because of a moral system independent of any person's opinion including God's, or there are logical reasons for us to have rights, again independent of any person's opinion.

You also say our laws are Christian-based. Which ones?
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Old 02-23-2012, 06:01 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas
5,864 posts, read 4,968,167 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodToBeHome View Post
What is our identity? Americans documents say our rights are from God and our laws seem to be Christian based.

What say you?
Our government and state is, and should be, a secular entity. It imposes no religious tests nor does it dictate any state sponsored religions. However, the populace of the country is very religious, specifically Christian.
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Old 02-23-2012, 06:25 PM
 
1,743 posts, read 2,155,546 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodToBeHome View Post
What is our identity? Americans documents say our rights are from God and our laws seem to be Christian based.
How exactly do our laws seem to be Christian based? Freedom of religion, speech and all the other rights and laws we have in this country were won in CONFLICT with Christian laws and principles.

If what you claim is true, why did Christians - who had the means to setup ANY system of government and laws they wished choose oppressive monarchies and theocracies for almost 1800 years without ever founding a nation like the United States?

HINT: Christianity had ZERO, ZILCH, NADA to do with our laws or the founding if this nation. Ditto with The Bible. They are only conducive to monarchies, theocracies and dictatorships.
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Old 02-23-2012, 07:49 PM
 
12,595 posts, read 6,628,464 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
But, GldnRule, the same argument could be applied to race equality in saying that "the real deal" is that this country is a white anglo-saxon country and that any and all interpretations by some group of "officials" doesn't change the way things really are.

Even now, where white anglo-saxons are becoming the minority, one could still argue, using your logic, that this country, regardless of what any document says, is really and truly a white anglo-saxon country.

The problem with this frame of thinking, in my opinion, is that it gives the minority no chance to ever become an integral part of a society even if their numbers become greater than that of the majority. One could also argue that in today's America, the country is still run by that same white anglo-saxonism that has been around since our founding - even as their grasp on being the majority shrinks.

So, for example, in 50 years when the Latin American and African American populations take over as the majority, should our laws still reflect the way our anglo-saxon roots REALLY are or should they reflect a more homogenous and equal society?

Regardless of our roots and our origins, we have to be prepared to move on as populations and societal dynamics change. Sure, one could argue that this country really was a Christian nation in so much as what the overwhelming majority of the people believed throughout our history. But things are changing and it is no longer necessarily that way. Squelching that change and that shifting dynamic in favor of the way things "REALLY ARE" is no better than saying you are squelching it in favor of the way things "REALLY SHOULD BE" - which then adds a completely different perspective to the way you approach the situation.

Once we begin to go down the road of things "REALLY SHOULD BE" this way, progress becomes limited, if not completely left for dead. This is very evident in the way the dialect goes in our current government. Both sides demand that things are a certain way and therefore things really should be this way or that way.

So, whatever the foundations of this country were originally, does not mean that it should be that way forever - which is why I detest so many socially conservative viewpoints. Without progress while desperately trying to cling to the history of a bygone era, we let the rest of the world pass us by as we remain stuck in a modality of what the past is/was and what it SHOULD say about our future rather than what it DOES say about our future.

Hmmmmm...this place seems familiar Troop...LOL!

I feel you saying, "Squelching that change and that shifting dynamic in favor of the way things "REALLY ARE" is no better than saying you are squelching it in favor of the way things "REALLY SHOULD BE", is not a valid dispute of my point.
What things were before, or what things might be in the future is not my point...I'm dealing in What Is, without opinion as to what it "should be". I'm not dealing from a standpoint of "should be" or "influence of/to laws".
What anyone thinks it "REALLY SHOULD BE" means very little as to "WHAT IT REALLY IS NOW".

And ya know what?...If this WAS/IS a nation where 4 out of 5 were Atheist, I'd have NO PROBLEM defining this as an "Atheist Nation".

Not everything can be the way one wants it to be.
For example: I believe that abortion it tantamount to willfully executing babies...but this nation allows baby-aborting. It hasn't always been that way during my life...but since 1973, it has been. So, even though I can't stand that this is a "Abortion Permitting Nation" because it goes against what I believe...that's just THE WAY IT IS.

Over 3/4s of the U.S.A. is Christian...that makes it a "Christian Nation". The same we are a "fast food eating nation"...a "television watching nation"...an "internet surfing nation"...a "Caucasian nation"...etc, etc, etc, etc.
By law, we don't HAVE to be any of those things...but we ARE...sooooooo, we ARE.

If there is any trait what-so-ever that this country identifies with...it's Christianity.
No other trait that is elective, and not legally compelled...and you'd be hard-pressed to find any that are not elective and are legally compelled...present as prolifically as Christianity. And that is...whether it be right or wrong, good or bad...the objective testimony to this being a "Christian Nation"!

It IS what it IS...and it ISN'T what it ISN'T. And that's based on what it ACTUALLY IS and ACTUALLY ISN'T.
This IS a "Christian Nation"...because IT IS a "Christian Nation".
If it was something else...then THAT is what it would be.
IT IS what IT IS...and THAT is REALITY.
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Old 02-23-2012, 08:04 PM
 
278 posts, read 356,950 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
Hmmmmm...this place seems familiar Troop...LOL!

I feel you saying, "Squelching that change and that shifting dynamic in favor of the way things "REALLY ARE" is no better than saying you are squelching it in favor of the way things "REALLY SHOULD BE", is not a valid dispute of my point.
What things were before, or what things might be in the future is not my point...I'm dealing in What Is, without opinion as to what it "should be". I'm not dealing from a standpoint of "should be" or "influence of/to laws".
What anyone thinks it "REALLY SHOULD BE" means very little as to "WHAT IT REALLY IS NOW".

And ya know what?...If this WAS/IS a nation where 4 out of 5 were Atheist, I'd have NO PROBLEM defining this as an "Atheist Nation".

Not everything can be the way one wants it to be.
For example: I believe that abortion it tantamount to willfully executing babies...but this nation allows baby-aborting. It hasn't always been that way during my life...but since 1973, it has been. So, even though I can't stand that this is a "Abortion Permitting Nation" because it goes against what I believe...that's just THE WAY IT IS.

Over 3/4s of the U.S.A. is Christian...that makes it a "Christian Nation". The same we are a "fast food eating nation"...a "television watching nation"...an "internet surfing nation"...a "Caucasian nation"...etc, etc, etc, etc.
By law, we don't HAVE to be any of those things...but we ARE...sooooooo, we ARE.

If there is any trait what-so-ever that this country identifies with...it's Christianity.
No other trait that is elective, and not legally compelled...and you'd be hard-pressed to find any that are not elective and are legally compelled...present as prolifically as Christianity. And that is...whether it be right or wrong, good or bad...the objective testimony to this being a "Christian Nation"!

It IS what it IS...and it ISN'T what it ISN'T. And that's based on what it ACTUALLY IS and ACTUALLY ISN'T.
This IS a "Christian Nation"...because IT IS a "Christian Nation".
If it was something else...then THAT is what it would be.
IT IS what IT IS...and THAT is REALITY.
It is also a white nation then too?
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