Why Did God Create Evil? (Harry Potter, Christians, beliefs, Adam and Eve)

[GCSTroop]

Originally Posted by btroop

In regard to Heaven, in this life, through our free will, we choose to turn over our free will to God. Then there are those who have chosen to not turn over their free will. So, I think that there is no capability to sin once we get to Heaven, before we return to the new earth.

This is starting to get frustrating. You said before that we have freewill in heaven to do both good and evil, and in your words, you said "for now." Well, my question was if we have freewill in heaven than obviously there must be some sort of evil and good. You, yourself asked me a question about how God would make a totally free-willing creature without the presence of good and evil. I told you that to have free will you would ultimately have to have a choice, the choice between good and bad. So to have freewill in heaven you still must have evil and good in heaven. Even in heaven, apparently we are still God's creatures, no? Although I understand what you mean by demonstrating our love on Earth, you also stated that there is freewill in heaven. So which is it? If I have the ability to turn from God if I'm in heaven as I do on Earth, than this sounds as if there is both good and evil in heaven regardless of the deeds done on Earth.

Originally Posted by btroop

No, at one time (at the beginning of God’s creation) there was the free will choice to choose good or evil. Satan and about 1/3 of the angels made their choice to rebel. The rest of the angels made their choice to choose God. So, to clarify, at the time of the creation, there was total free will in Heaven.

Free will with what? What was the evil presence in heaven? Again, you asked me how I would make a completely free-willed being without the option of good and evil? So if there was free-will in heaven, what was the evil factor to tempt Lucifer?

Originally Posted by btroop

At the present time in Heaven, the only way that man can re-enter Paradise is to become totally holy. The only way that man can become totally holy would be to use his free will to sign away his free will agency over to God.

And which God is it? Is it the Muslim Allah? Christian God? Perhaps it's Vishnu? Maybe Thor? Baal? Ra? Zeus? All religions feel as if they are right, and all have tried to present evidence as to why they are right, I have yet to see one that is convincing enough to be correct.

Originally Posted by btroop

You have to understand that God cannot force His will upon free will agents without their mind being open to His mind. This would be the equivalent of spiritual rape and God cannot act against His moral character.

I'm sorry, I truly don't understand what you mean by this. I'm not being snide, but is there a way you could possibly reword this? I don't quite follow what you mean.

Originally Posted by btroop

You see, part of your problem is. You do not understand who God is, His nature. Therefore, it makes no sense to you. God can’t instantly create people with His holy nature. There are some things that God can’t do. For example, he can’t lie.He can't go against His own moral nature. The things that God cannot do serve to define God, as well as those things that He can do. God cannot do things that breach logic. For example, He may be able to create a square or a circle, but he cannot create a circle that is a square. Such an object cannot logically exist. The fact that he cannot do everything does nothing to compromise His existence as the most powerful force that can possibly exist. Therefore, the description of God being ‘all powerful’ should not be held to a rigid, hyper literalism. It is hyperbole. The very attributes that he desires His holy people to possess are dependent upon the existence and exercise of free will.

I must admit that you are the first person I have ever "met" who believes in God that has said this about the "all-powerful" notion. Just an observation.

Originally Posted by btroop

Correct, that is why morals are absolute. Nazi’s can say it wasn’t wrong to murder until the cows come home. But, an objective moral standard beyond themselves (God) said it is wrong to murder.

You know, I was thinking about something the other day after I got done posting. Are we really morally coded not to murder? Let's face the facts. Murder has and unfortunately seems to be a part of human history. Whether done for personal gain, religious beliefs, or just plain sickness, murder seems to be something that humans have done from the beginning of time. Are we really coded not to behave this way? It doesn't seem so to me and a look at any part in history will show you that murder, whatever the form, was taken pretty lightly. People who were executed 300 years ago in England for certain things would barely spend a night in jail or even face a ticket for the same crime today. Look at how quickly our own forefathers murdered Indians, bred slaves (and were legally allowed to kill them), the French Revolution, Genghis Khan, Napoleon, Stalin, Hitler, or basically the entire Billy Joel song "We Didn't Start the Fire". Is it really not in us to murder, regardless of the circumstances?? By the way, what I wanted to get across about England was that although people were "executed" for their misbehavings, was it execution or was it murder? I think that perhaps it IS in our nature to kill. And although many of us do not like it, it seems to be a part of society both in the past and present. So, as we "good" people find it morally wrong and irresponsible, apparently there are a large majority who don't seem to feel the same way. Not that I condone it because of this, but it just seems unfit to say that perhaps we were "coded" this way given the past history of human nature.

Originally Posted by btroop

Such as which ones you previously mentioned? You mentioned specific dates and times in history where God used sinful people to judge sin. The Bible says the wages of sin is death, e.g. the wages of adultery (one of the ones you mentioned) is death. The ones you previously mentioned are not moral codes, they are penalties for not following the moral codes. And as I stated before, Jesus when asked said the greatest of all the commandments is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. And to love your neighbor as yourself. Brilliant if you ask me because if those two were followed, there would be no sin.

Yes, the Golden Rule is a good rule. I wish we all followed it. And although I agree with Jesus on this perspective it doesn't make me any more of a believer in Jesus as the Son of God. Quite comically, I think Richard Dawkins even advocated a t-shirt slogan that said something like "Atheists for Jesus".

Originally Posted by btroop

Not at all. I’ve already told you that God said He has written His moral law on all of mankind’s consciences. There are plenty of atheists who hold to a moral standard. But, as I’ve said before, the atheist has no way of justifying the moral standards.

I understand what you are getting at here, but that is the foundation of your belief, not mine. I could accept that if I believed in God, but I don't, so it seems that I must be able to justify my moral standards from something else. I don't know how to explain this in words, I'll do my best, but it seems as if you're using a sort of circular logic here, and I hope that comes out as it should. What I'm getting at is that you believe we are morally coded by god not to do certain things, and you believe that because the bible tells you so, and because the bible says it's right you believe that it is right. Are you following me? Because the book says it's right, to you, it must be right, not because science says it's right, or anything else, but the book says it is right. This seems self-defeating to me.

Originally Posted by btroop

We are hisher than the animals, made in the image of God. Able to think, engineer, create music and art, with the full range of emotions. I can’t believe that you can’t see the difference between humans and animals. Humans have morals and abstract conceptual capability. Animals do not.

I think if you look at human nature and animals, although we are capable of doing far greater things with our brains, we really don't act any differently than any animal. I think one of the best books I've ever read that really puts this point down is "The Lord of the Flies." It really shows the primitive, animal-like nature of man.

Originally Posted by btroop

As I already pointed out above, animals do not act on choosing right and wrong. The young wolf not taking a bite out of the male’s food bowl is because the young wolf doesn’t want to get attacked.

Let me put it a little better. Instinctually, the wolf or dog is a pack animal. They are born with certain instincts that allow them to survive better by belonging to a pack. And as part of the pack, they must have a place, whether it be Alpha Male or, as I like to call it, Zeta Female The pack, as a whole, survives on this concept. And, yes, the young wolf will learn through trial and error the error of it's ways when it tries to eat the Alpha's food, but the dog and wolf yearn to be follower's. They react wonderfully to it, and this is instinctual. The amazing thing is that the wolves and dogs have laid their own standards down for the survival of their "society". Humans are really no different. We're just surviving too.

Originally Posted by btroop

I do good because I obey my conscience. I acknowledge that this objective standard written on my conscience is from God. I worry when someone actually thinks that animals have morals and that humans are nothing more than an animal.

Again, if you haven't read it, I recommend "Lord of the Flies". Because we are technically animals does not mean that we HAVE to act like animals. However, given an opportunity, man can and will revert to his most primitive state to suit his own survival needs. The pig can as well. A domesticated farm pig can make the transition to wild boar in a very short amount of time if needed. Although docile on a farm, when alone in the wild it can revert to it's more agile and ferocious form as that in a wild boar in just a few short weeks. It doesn't have to on a farm because it doesn't NEED to.

Originally Posted by btroop

God didn’t put the notion in man. Man had already killed in the beginning, Cain killed Abel. The nations that were conquered were the ones in Israel’s boundaries so God could raise up His chosen nation and set the steps in motion to bring forth the Messiah. Apparently man hasn’t changed much since the NT was written. What has changed is God manifested Himself in the flesh and atoned for our sin, paid in full. Because of this, I love God and I try to obey Him out of love.

Again, this seems circular to me. You are using the context of the bible which says it's right, to prove that it is right. I respect your opinion of faith but I cannot believe this.

Originally Posted by btroop

Where did God come from? God has always existed, He’s eternal and YES, it does say that in the Bible.

Again, this seems circular to me for reasons stated previously.

Originally Posted by btroop

I believe in the big band too. You fail to see the significance of this? It used to be that the skeptics would say, ah, the universe is eternal. But now that science has demonstrated that the universe has a definite beginning, that lines up with what the Bible says.

At least we agree on something. The Big Bang that is

Originally Posted by btroop

Sometimes simplistic is a good thing. Ever heard of occam's razor? Or, logic? Religion isn’t in the science business. God created the universe and all the natural laws and laws of physics that go with it. The bounds by which I believe in God are faith and science. The problem with you and your statement above is that you don’t objectively examine the evidence that is presented. Plenty of scientists observe this evidence and see God. In fact, many times, it pulled them from the agnosticism to God.

Of course religion isn't in the science business. That is why I hate to see theists use it to try and prove there is a God. And yes, sometimes simplistic is a good thing, but when discussing matters of the universe, time, space, etc.. etc.. there is no room for simplistic in my opinion. I have tried to objectively examine the evidence, but again, if I take the proper nouns out of any religious story, it sounds ridiculous. Not that that is proof of anything, but it most certainly seems as if it is a primitive story being told through the eyes of primitive man and not God. And, yes, I understand that many scientists look at evidence and see God. I do not. It doesn't make me any less of a person because of it.

Originally Posted by btroop

The fact is, the universe had a beginning in finite time at the moment of the Big Bang. How did this universe decide to create itself? How did the universe design itself with physical laws and parameters exactly fine tuned to support life? The laws of physics are designed with such precision that it is almost inconceivable that they could be the result of chance. For example, take the ratio of the number of electrons to protons. This ratio must be exactly equal to one to one to better than one part in 1037 (10 to the 37th power, or "1" followed by 37 zeros), otherwise electromagnetic forces would have superseded gravitational forces and no galaxies, stars or planets would have ever formed in the entire history of the universe.

Yes, but they did. So what? If they weren't perfect we wouldn't be sitting here talking about how unfathomable it is. But because it happened, we are. Whether it was God or sheer chance, the fact remains that that is the scenario in which we love. Most people who hit the lottery don't believe it could have ever happened to them but it did. Otherwise, they wouldn't be sitting there talking about how they hit the lottery. It's as simple as that. You can throw numbers at me all day, and as profound as they may seem the fact remains that we are what we are and it is what it is. But that doesn't mean anything more to prove God than a random person hitting the lottery.

Going to give my arm a rest now.... my carpal tunnel is bothering me.

[GCSTroop]

Originally Posted by Alpha8207

GCSTroop, you realize that's what you've been doing as well, right?

defending and speaking for:

1. Something that has never been proven to exist or not exist

2. A situation that no one was around to see and/or hear

3. What a God or Devil's thought process was (whether real or imaginary)

4. The so-human characteristics that things in heaven seem to have on earth. i.e. - The temptation between good and evil in heaven- for as some have stated if there is freewill in heaven there must be good and evil. And not only that, but the fact that we have sensory perception in heaven to enjoy the looks, sounds, tastes, and smells of heaven.

You realize that this WHOLE THREAD was based on you defending(at least bringing up) and speaking for something you don't even believe in. YOU ARE THE ORIGINAL POSTER!

That's why I said I didn't want to sound arrogant but the whole point is that the religious will sit here all day and night to defend the things I mentioned in the statement above. Perhaps I should have worded it better and said that I find it amazing people will sit here and defend things such as spirits, Gods, and ghosts when no proof exists for any of it.

Oh, and in regards to my earlier reply to you; I understood the angle you were trying to get at, but all I'm doing is merely posing questions. I'm not trying to question anyone's faith, I'm just doing what I enjoy, and that's discussing religion and beliefs in as civil a manner as I can. And, yes, you are correct that I probably will not believe after this post has run its course, I still find it interesting to understand what people believe. I also feel that, sadly, it is necessary for me to understand as much about the Christian religion in a society that is almost completely unacceptable towards Atheists. I know what everyone's thinking: "NOT ME! I don't look at Atheists any differently", and I'm happy to know that there are people like that. Unfortunately, as was brought up in a previous post about a girl who was essentially kicked out of school for being an atheist, this kind of thing happens all too often and so I feel it necessary to learn as much about religion as I possibly can so that when I'm questioned about it I don't sound like the woman who was asked what Atheists believe. Her response "Well, I don't know really, I mean, I know they don't believe in the same God like we do." But, that's an entirely different post, and if I can find it I'll link it if you're interested.

Here it is: Please post any thoughts on this in the appropriate thread.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/relig...e-atheism.html

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by btroop

The only way that man can become totally holy would be to use his free will to sign away his free will agency over to God.

Do you realize that this is what most Nazi’s did? Maybe they didn’t do this consciously but it happened. I guess that to some level this always happens when there is a chain of command in play. Superiors do not want their subordinates to question their orders nor do they care if they do not fully understand their given orders. Superiors only demand that their orders are followed, preferably without question.
Basically they take away your autonomy.

And what is the point of being given something so you can give it away? Why give me free will so I can sign it away?
I don’t see free will as a sign of evil.
Signing away free will is more a way of saying that God doesn’t trust me.
That God is convinced that humanity is unable to learn.

[btroop]

Originally Posted by GCSTroop

This is starting to get frustrating. You said before that we have freewill in heaven to do both good and evil, and in your words, you said "for now." Well, my question was if we have freewill in heaven than obviously there must be some sort of evil and good. You, yourself asked me a question about how God would make a totally free-willing creature without the presence of good and evil. I told you that to have free will you would ultimately have to have a choice, the choice between good and bad. So to have freewill in heaven you still must have evil and good in heaven. Even in heaven, apparently we are still God's creatures, no? Although I understand what you mean by demonstrating our love on Earth, you also stated that there is freewill in heaven. So which is it? If I have the ability to turn from God if I'm in heaven as I do on Earth, than this sounds as if there is both good and evil in heaven regardless of the deeds done on Earth.

Don't get frustrated. Whoever said studying the living God is easy? I clarified to you in my last post that before the fall, there was the potential for choosing good and evil in Heaven. Now, the decisions in Heaven made by God's freewill creatures were made. The ones who chose God's way, voluntarily chose God and the ones who chose to rebel against God (evil) are no longer residents in Heaven.

When we (mankind that made a freewill choice for God's way) here on this earth, die and go to Heaven, we will not have the capacity to sin. We passed the litmus test (metaphorically speaking) in this life to satify God's holy nature for freewill. There can be no more sin in Heaven or in the new Heaven and new earth which is yet to come. You know, what we like to call progress 'been there, done that.'

Free will with what? What was the evil presence in heaven? Again, you asked me how I would make a completely free-willed being without the option of good and evil? So if there was free-will in heaven, what was the evil factor to tempt Lucifer?

Freewill to rebel against God. Pride. If God is the creator and He defines reality, i.e. right and wrong, to go against Him is wrong. Satan wanted to be higher than God. There is a good description of Satan's heart in Isaiah 14.

And which God is it? Is it the Muslim Allah? Christian God? Perhaps it's Vishnu? Maybe Thor? Baal? Ra? Zeus? All religions feel as if they are right, and all have tried to present evidence as to why they are right, I have yet to see one that is convincing enough to be correct.

Religions can have bits of truth. You know why? Because God has instilled it in our conscience that there is a God. That is why it says in Roman's one that we are without excuse. That God has made it evident by the creation and the moral law. Religion becomes wrong when they get the nature of God wrong.

I'm sorry, I truly don't understand what you mean by this. I'm not being snide, but is there a way you could possibly reword this? I don't quite follow what you mean.

It would be against God's very nature for Him to force or coerce His creation to His will. God is love and love is not forced. Love is a decision of a freewill creature to choose to love. God didn't want to create robots, He created to glorify Himself and it is certainly glorifying for His creation to love Him in return. There are certain things that God cannot do if He is to remain "holy." To force would be one of them.

I must admit that you are the first person I have ever "met" who believes in God that has said this about the "all-powerful" notion. Just an observation.

Thanks but all the credit and glory goes to God. This is not easy "stuff" to understand and one shouldn't think it to be easy to understand the most powerful force in all the universe (and beyond).

You know, I was thinking about something the other day after I got done posting. Are we really morally coded not to murder? Let's face the facts. Murder has and unfortunately seems to be a part of human history. Whether done for personal gain, religious beliefs, or just plain sickness, murder seems to be something that humans have done from the beginning of time. Are we really coded not to behave this way? It doesn't seem so to me and a look at any part in history will show you that murder, whatever the form, was taken pretty lightly. People who were executed 300 years ago in England for certain things would barely spend a night in jail or even face a ticket for the same crime today. Look at how quickly our own forefathers murdered Indians, bred slaves (and were legally allowed to kill them), the French Revolution, Genghis Khan, Napoleon, Stalin, Hitler, or basically the entire Billy Joel song "We Didn't Start the Fire". Is it really not in us to murder, regardless of the circumstances?? By the way, what I wanted to get across about England was that although people were "executed" for their misbehavings, was it execution or was it murder? I think that perhaps it IS in our nature to kill. And although many of us do not like it, it seems to be a part of society both in the past and present. So, as we "good" people find it morally wrong and irresponsible, apparently there are a large majority who don't seem to feel the same way. Not that I condone it because of this, but it just seems unfit to say that perhaps we were "coded" this way given the past history of human nature.

Murder or whatever the sin. That is the whole point. We are fallen creatures who are capable of sin. The fact that I steal something doesn't mean I don't know it is wrong. I can justify it in my mind but the very fact that I am trying to justify it means I am trying to override the "no stealing" within my conscience.

Yes, the Golden Rule is a good rule. I wish we all followed it. And although I agree with Jesus on this perspective it doesn't make me any more of a believer in Jesus as the Son of God. Quite comically, I think Richard Dawkins even advocated a t-shirt slogan that said something like "Atheists for Jesus".

Okay. I was just reminding you that those events in history you mentioned were not moral laws.

I understand what you are getting at here, but that is the foundation of your belief, not mine. I could accept that if I believed in God, but I don't, so it seems that I must be able to justify my moral standards from something else. I don't know how to explain this in words, I'll do my best, but it seems as if you're using a sort of circular logic here, and I hope that comes out as it should. What I'm getting at is that you believe we are morally coded by god not to do certain things, and you believe that because the bible tells you so, and because the bible says it's right you believe that it is right. Are you following me? Because the book says it's right, to you, it must be right, not because science says it's right, or anything else, but the book says it is right. This seems self-defeating to me.

It is not circular reasoning because the presence of moral absolutes backs up what the Bible says about God writing His moral law on mankinds conscience.

I think if you look at human nature and animals, although we are capable of doing far greater things with our brains, we really don't act any differently than any animal. I think one of the best books I've ever read that really puts this point down is "The Lord of the Flies." It really shows the primitive, animal-like nature of man.

Man may have the capability to behave in a primitive manner but he also has the capability to think, to choose, to rationalize, to have abstract thought and intelligent speech. Man was created in the image of God with an immortal soul.

Let me put it a little better. Instinctually, the wolf or dog is a pack animal. They are born with certain instincts that allow them to survive better by belonging to a pack. And as part of the pack, they must have a place, whether it be Alpha Male or, as I like to call it, Zeta Female The pack, as a whole, survives on this concept. And, yes, the young wolf will learn through trial and error the error of it's ways when it tries to eat the Alpha's food, but the dog and wolf yearn to be follower's. They react wonderfully to it, and this is instinctual. The amazing thing is that the wolves and dogs have laid their own standards down for the survival of their "society". Humans are really no different. We're just surviving too. [/font]

The young wolf isn't eating from the bowl due to learning not to get bit then. Not from a moral code.

Again, if you haven't read it, I recommend "Lord of the Flies". Because we are technically animals does not mean that we HAVE to act like animals. However, given an opportunity, man can and will revert to his most primitive state to suit his own survival needs. The pig can as well. A domesticated farm pig can make the transition to wild boar in a very short amount of time if needed. Although docile on a farm, when alone in the wild it can revert to it's more agile and ferocious form as that in a wild boar in just a few short weeks. It doesn't have to on a farm because it doesn't NEED to.

Good points but man is different. His "higher" characteristics have more to do with his intelligence, his ability to plan and consider the future, and ability to express emotions. Animal instincts and habits are remarkable, but something sets man apart. God created the animals "after their kinds." But when God created man, He created him "after His own image."

We often have similar DNA to the animals, similar body parts, similar functions, similar consciousness, similar blood, but the comparison disappears when man's eternal spirit is considered. The animals have nothing like this. Something about man adequately reflects God's nature in a way that the animals don't share.

God created man with the wonderful ability to reason and comprehend abstract thoughts. He alone can speak in a language which communicates his inner yearnings. Most importantly, man can truly love and respond to love, most particularly the love of God. He can recognize his own sinfulness, repent of it, and appreciate God's gracious solution to his sin problem. He can respond to God's love by choosing a life pleasing to Him. Animals, regardless of their cranial capacity, know nothing of this.

Man is qualitatively superior to the animals in many important ways. But he is also quantitatively distinct from all animals. No my friend, man is not a higher animal. Man is not an animal at all. He is the very image of God, and nothing less.

Again, this seems circular to me. You are using the context of the bible which says it's right, to prove that it is right. I respect your opinion of faith but I cannot believe this.

What do you mean circular? You were using the bible to make a point. You asked, "if God put this notion in man in the OT why would man have changed in the NT?" I simply answered your question. Try not to use a double standard from now on.

Again, this seems circular to me for reasons stated previously.

You asked where God came and said you didn't think it said in the Bible taht God is eternal. I simply answered and said The Bible does say God is eternal. Not only that but logic dictates that if the universe had a beginning, then something beyond itself had to cause that beginning.

At least we agree on something. The Big Bang that is

As jimj would say, Rah,Rah, shish boom bah!!!!! All we need is a line of cheerleaders with pom pom's.

Of course religion isn't in the science business. That is why I hate to see theists use it to try and prove there is a God. And yes, sometimes simplistic is a good thing, but when discussing matters of the universe, time, space, etc.. etc.. there is no room for simplistic in my opinion. I have tried to objectively examine the evidence, but again, if I take the proper nouns out of any religious story, it sounds ridiculous. Not that that is proof of anything, but it most certainly seems as if it is a primitive story being told through the eyes of primitive man and not God. And, yes, I understand that many scientists look at evidence and see God. I do not. It doesn't make me any less of a person because of it.

Why should someone who believes in God not use and study science? If there is a God, then certainly you would expect to see evidence of God in science. If it was all a primitive story only made up by primitive man, you would expect to not see any evidence of God in science or archaeology. Could this be the reason behind your objection to believers using science to demonstrate that God logically exists?

Yes, but they did. So what? If they weren't perfect we wouldn't be sitting here talking about how unfathomable it is. But because it happened, we are. Whether it was God or sheer chance, the fact remains that that is the scenario in which we love. Most people who hit the lottery don't believe it could have ever happened to them but it did. Otherwise, they wouldn't be sitting there talking about how they hit the lottery. It's as simple as that. You can throw numbers at me all day, and as profound as they may seem the fact remains that we are what we are and it is what it is. But that doesn't mean anything more to prove God than a random person hitting the lottery.

Going to give my arm a rest now.... my carpal tunnel is bothering me.

There is a huge difference between 1 in 5 million odds (lottery) and 1 in 10 to the 37th power. Not to mention that in the lottery, there is a winning number to start with. On top of it, the ratio of the number of electrons to protons is but one example of dozens. the totality of all of them make it impossible with intelligent intervention.

[btroop]

Originally Posted by Tricky D

Originally Posted by btroop
Do you realize that this is what most Nazi’s did? Maybe they didn’t do this consciously but it happened. I guess that to some level this always happens when there is a chain of command in play. Superiors do not want their subordinates to question their orders nor do they care if they do not fully understand their given orders. Superiors only demand that their orders are followed, preferably without question.
Basically they take away your autonomy.

Right now, I am focused on gcstroop. I do not have the free time to carry on mulitple posts. I will respond to you this one time but after this, I will not until gcstroop and I am finished. Sorry, but I have too much to do in life than to spend more than a reasonable amount of time online.

The nazi's were not worthy of surrending my freewill to. The nazi's were not the creator of the universe and all reality.

And what is the point of being given something so you can give it away? Why give me free will so I can sign it away?
I don’t see free will as a sign of evil.
Signing away free will is more a way of saying that God doesn’t trust me.
That God is convinced that humanity is unable to learn.

To pass the litmus test. I've already covered this with gcstroop. Please go back and review the posts.

[Tricky D]

If God wanted me to be a mindless puppet He should not have allowed me to be born with a brain. Then I would have been happy with never having known something as elusive as a free will.

[GCSTroop]

Btroop, Although I am eager to reply to your last post, I think we've come to a point in our discussion where I believe we both can most certainly agree to disagree, and I feel that no matter what either of us says we are not going to change the opinions of one another. Perhaps I understand what Alpha was getting at a little better, as well, but I certainly enjoyed the conversation. However, I do feel as if we've gone round and round and I think we've both had to say what we've had to say. I also have a feeling that unless one of us stops this conversation, we are going to sit here for months on end debating the same thing over and over and over again

I would also like to welcome you to the forum and ask that you please post more, I think you have interesting thoughts, although I don't necessarily agree with them, but I don't come here to agree with everyone on the forum as I'm sure most in here don't either. Ultimately, I think we're on here to learn a little more about each other's beliefs/faiths and I can tell you from personal experience that I think on both ends of the spectrum this board has enlightened a lot of people into the thoughts and beliefs of others. There was a time when I thought that people of religious faith were, to put it simply, ignorant. I have found that although I don't agree with their faiths the majority of them that I have met on this board are not. I have also found, at least I think I have, that many believers had many false pre-determinations set in their mind about atheists. Ultimately, what this board will do is help to open people's eyes a little better towards people of different beliefs.

If you ask me, the brutality of religion throughout history has been caused more because of the bigotry and misunderstandings of other's beliefs. I think if everyone in the world had a little CD Forum to go to it might not be such a bad place. Although I understand and respect that a church is a place to worship a certain faith, I think that it would benefit the world if it also taught the "real" meaning of other faiths and not that it's just a "wrong religion" regardless of how stupid it sounds. That, to me, is the ultimate fallacy that religion has brought on the world. Of course, atheism, can arrive at the same pitfalls if it's not careful but perhaps that's just a natural phenomena of the human race?

[Alpha8207]

Originally Posted by GCSTroop

Btroop, Although I am eager to reply to your last post, I think we've come to a point in our discussion where I believe we both can most certainly agree to disagree, and I feel that no matter what either of us says we are not going to change the opinions of one another. Perhaps I understand what Alpha was getting at a little better, as well, but I certainly enjoyed the conversation. However, I do feel as if we've gone round and round and I think we've both had to say what we've had to say. I also have a feeling that unless one of us stops this conversation, we are going to sit here for months on end debating the same thing over and over and over again

I would also like to welcome you to the forum and ask that you please post more, I think you have interesting thoughts, although I don't necessarily agree with them, but I don't come here to agree with everyone on the forum as I'm sure most in here don't either. Ultimately, I think we're on here to learn a little more about each other's beliefs/faiths and I can tell you from personal experience that I think on both ends of the spectrum this board has enlightened a lot of people into the thoughts and beliefs of others. There was a time when I thought that people of religious faith were, to put it simply, ignorant. I have found that although I don't agree with their faiths the majority of them that I have met on this board are not. I have also found, at least I think I have, that many believers had many false pre-determinations set in their mind about atheists. Ultimately, what this board will do is help to open people's eyes a little better towards people of different beliefs.

If you ask me, the brutality of religion throughout history has been caused more because of the bigotry and misunderstandings of other's beliefs. I think if everyone in the world had a little CD Forum to go to it might not be such a bad place. Although I understand and respect that a church is a place to worship a certain faith, I think that it would benefit the world if it also taught the "real" meaning of other faiths and not that it's just a "wrong religion" regardless of how stupid it sounds. That, to me, is the ultimate fallacy that religion has brought on the world. Of course, atheism, can arrive at the same pitfalls if it's not careful but perhaps that's just a natural phenomena of the human race?

That's a great post, GCSTroop.

Absolutely great, my friend (I hope my friend).

I had to chuckle at that last sentence when you throw atheists a 'get out jail free card', hehehe.

You sound more like one of 'us' than one of 'them' sometimes. LOL

Again, excellent post.

[GCSTroop]

Originally Posted by Alpha8207

That's a great post, GCSTroop.

Absolutely great, my friend (I hope my friend).

I had to chuckle at that last sentence when you throw atheists a 'get out jail free card', hehehe.

You sound more like one of 'us' than one of 'them' sometimes. LOL

Again, excellent post.

LOL! I knew someone would perceive that as a "get out of jail free" card. That's not what I was trying to imply. I was trying to imply that perhaps it is inherrently programmed into man, regardless of what you believe our beginnings are, to not only feel the need to be right, but to be so adamant about it. I've seen atheists that are so downright obnoxious and yet talk about how religion has caused so many problems. The issue I have with this is that they are displaying that same typical behavior that has given religion such a bad name over the course of history. So perhaps it is just human nature.

And yes, you can call me friend. I know we butt heads (or is it but heads?) at times but I think we both know each other well enough to understand each other. Sometimes I post when I'm in a really rotten mood and it usually reflects. Be warned: any post made between the hours of 1700-1800 CST are bad hours for me, as I'm just waking up (no I work night shift, I'm not a complete bum) and haven't had my coffee yet

[btroop]

Originally Posted by GCSTroop

Btroop, Although I am eager to reply to your last post, I think we've come to a point in our discussion where I believe we both can most certainly agree to disagree, and I feel that no matter what either of us says we are not going to change the opinions of one another. Perhaps I understand what Alpha was getting at a little better, as well, but I certainly enjoyed the conversation. However, I do feel as if we've gone round and round and I think we've both had to say what we've had to say. I also have a feeling that unless one of us stops this conversation, we are going to sit here for months on end debating the same thing over and over and over again

I would also like to welcome you to the forum and ask that you please post more, I think you have interesting thoughts, although I don't necessarily agree with them, but I don't come here to agree with everyone on the forum as I'm sure most in here don't either. Ultimately, I think we're on here to learn a little more about each other's beliefs/faiths and I can tell you from personal experience that I think on both ends of the spectrum this board has enlightened a lot of people into the thoughts and beliefs of others. There was a time when I thought that people of religious faith were, to put it simply, ignorant. I have found that although I don't agree with their faiths the majority of them that I have met on this board are not. I have also found, at least I think I have, that many believers had many false pre-determinations set in their mind about atheists. Ultimately, what this board will do is help to open people's eyes a little better towards people of different beliefs.

If you ask me, the brutality of religion throughout history has been caused more because of the bigotry and misunderstandings of other's beliefs. I think if everyone in the world had a little CD Forum to go to it might not be such a bad place. Although I understand and respect that a church is a place to worship a certain faith, I think that it would benefit the world if it also taught the "real" meaning of other faiths and not that it's just a "wrong religion" regardless of how stupid it sounds. That, to me, is the ultimate fallacy that religion has brought on the world. Of course, atheism, can arrive at the same pitfalls if it's not careful but perhaps that's just a natural phenomena of the human race?

Hey, thanks gcstroop! I look forward to more discussions in the future. Life is a learning process and when one keeps their mind open, you never know what you will find. Regarding your last sentence, keep in mind that I absolutely agree with atheists and others who say that many atrocious things have been done in the name of God, even in the name of Christianity. However, these atrocities were not perpetrated by God, but by evil human beings. In fact, if you examine the atrocities perpetrated by atheists, you find that they have killed more people in the last century than all of the crimes of 2000 years of "church" history combined. Joseph Stalin killed 20 million Soviet citizens between 1929 and 1939 because they were not politically correct. Mao Tse-tung killed 34 to 62 million Chinese during the Chinese civil war of the 1930s and 1940s. Pol Pot, the leader of the Marxist regime in Cambodia, Kampuchea, in the 1970's killed 1.7 million of his own people. Should atheism be blamed for the atrocities of atheists? The world should be safe from a true follower of Christ because Christ never taught us to harm anyone.

One last thought on your op, remember evil is not a hinge.