The God Problem (believer, Adam, religions, theology)

[Mr5150]

Originally Posted by Rafius

Ah! Just like the Universe then.

The universe is outside of space time? I think you are wrong on that one.

[AREQUIPA]

Originally Posted by Sir Les

Chaos only resides where there is error of principle rules...once the rules are put into play, and all is fulfilled...Chaos becomes order by process of elimination....As Chaos holds, eventual collisions, accedentals, and mayham in all directions...those things eventually take out other things in chaos...and so on and so forth over time...until the rule of principle becomes known..and done by those who preceive and preside over the chaos.....So once chaos become great, that would be its final death throughs...then it would all collide...and then extinction of the chaotic states of mind become renewed in ordered Principles....Then the Kingdom of God...as those principle rules stay the same throughout time and space....It just takes a long time for Humans to comply....but eventually they will have to...or it all goes to moot....and that would tarnish the human intelligence proclaimation.....can't have that now can we?...or have I spoken too soon?

A good and thoughtful contribution - actually reading through Mystic's writing style to the what he's actually saying has given me some practice in interpreting this type of post.

In a way, this is a parallel to the view that, given what we would call 'noting' as a start, the jockeying for position between one 'nothing' (which is what subatomic particles seem to be made of) and another results as, as you say, "collisions, accedentals, and mayham in all directions...those things eventually take out other things in chaos.." and those relatively stable subatomic relationships persist and the others don't in what might broadly be considered 'evolution' (in the way theists misuse the term) and "hose things eventually take out other things in chaos...and so on and so forth over time...until the rule of principle becomes known..and done by those who preceive and preside over the chaos....."

We get a (relatively) ordered physical universe and the process of star, and planet formation and on some worlds, the molecules can become even more complicated than crystals and not only combine with and other molecules but go looking for them. We call it 'life'.

Thus far, I'm with you. But then you still seem to insist that chaos persists and we are still waiting for some event to come and make everything perfectly ordered.

While the first part I agree with, though I can't prove it, the second seems to have no evidential basis but a sort of misplaced longing for some entity to wave a magic wand and solve all our problems.

You haven's spoken too soon or even too much, but to no point. Human intelligence may not be perfect, but it is, so far as the evidence goes, the best we have and all that we have. Don't crush your jalopy in the hope that someone will magic you a Rolls - Royce.

[Rafius]

Originally Posted by Mr5150

The universe is outside of space time? I think you are wrong on that one.

You need to go back to post #6 and read again. I have solved the problem by assigning the same attributes to the universe that you have assigned to your god. If 'special pleading' is acceptable for your god then so it is for the universe also.

If your god does not need a cause, neither does the universe.
If your god has always existed, so has the universe.
If your god is outside of time and space, so is the universe.

Simples!!

[distraff]

Originally Posted by Mr5150

The universe is outside of space time? I think you are wrong on that one.

Could you explain to me what is the universe in your opinion?

Is it all that exists? or ....
Is it our particular bubble of space-time? or ...
Is it the non-supernatural world?

[BigCityDreamer]

Originally Posted by Mr5150

OTOH the bolded portion of your post is what God is about. Something outside of space-time.

Space and time are incomprehensible enough to humans as it is.

[DentalFloss]

Originally Posted by Mr5150

OK here's the deal. Until you can prove that the Universe "just happened" and can prove that the power of God's effects in one's life are just vapor, you really won't convince any theist that your POV is a correct reflection of reality.

The biggest problem with this argument is that it usually involves a leap of faith. People will say, we were obviously created, therefore that proves MY god and MY religion to be correct. That is a logical fallacy.

Even if, somehow, a supernatural creator that exists outside of this spacetime and time could be proven to a scientific certainty, that's all that's been proved. It does nothing to validate any religion.

[eanassir]

Whatever atheists say, they cannot answer the question: Who created the universe?

[distraff]

Originally Posted by eanassir

Whatever atheists say, they cannot answer the question: Who created the universe?

Right. We have no clue how the universe is created. This is why we must be sceptical of those why claim to have these kinds of answers.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by DentalFloss

The biggest problem with this argument is that it usually involves a leap of faith. People will say, we were obviously created, therefore that proves MY god and MY religion to be correct. That is a logical fallacy.

True . . . but it also involves one to say that everything "just is" and that proves we were NOT . . . so "No God" is the default.

Even if, somehow, a supernatural creator that exists outside of this spacetime and time could be proven to a scientific certainty, that's all that's been proved. It does nothing to validate any religion.

Also true, especially since there is nothing supernatural. God will remain an individual experience defined by individual experiences and beliefs . . . hence faith.

Originally Posted by distraff

Right. We have no clue how the universe is created. This is why we must be sceptical of those why claim to have these kinds of answers.

True . . . but to be skeptical does not mean that all the abundant evidence of Creation must be ignored to conclude that there is none. The tiresome "there is not one shred of evidence for God" is not only ridiculous . . . it is supremely arrogant and ignorant.

[SuperSoul]

Originally Posted by eanassir

Whatever atheists say, they cannot answer the question: Who created the universe?

...and why the universe was created.

Whatever atheists say, they, like their name wrestle too much with Theists & theology instead of thinking for themselves.

Who knows how or why we may be the result of a star exploding...
Who knows why there are trillions of microbes that call your body their god.

What really matters to YOU?
What do you worship, or find of ultimate concern?
That's what your God is.