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Old 03-26-2012, 01:01 PM
 
10,996 posts, read 21,415,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
What do you mean "
We're all agreeing at the end of the day. No - there wasn't a huge global flood."?
That's just it, we are not all agreeing.
Did it happen? Of course it happened. Where have you been?
Here in the real world.

 
Old 03-26-2012, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
29,903 posts, read 30,435,116 times
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For several reasons, wooden vessels cannot be constructed in the traditional way with a waterline length much in excess of 80 metres (260 ft). As the ratios of the various dimensions, such as length to breadth, are fairly constant, this length limitation made it difficult to improve cargo-carrying capacity, and a plateau in efficiency was reached. Any small improvements came about by manipulation of the key proportions of ships. This often made them unseaworthy. http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Shipbuilding.aspx
 
Old 03-26-2012, 01:12 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
29,903 posts, read 30,435,116 times
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As a mariner who has spent most of my life at sea I can tell you that any ship, no matter how large is in serious trouble if it loses power or steerage in even a moderate storm...Without steerage the ship will lie broadside to the waves, and a wooden vessel of the length you claim for the ark would have been converted to debris within an hour or less.

This was filmed inside a modern cruise ship...


Shock CCTV footage: Violent storm sends people flying aboard Pacific Sun cruise ship - YouTube
 
Old 03-26-2012, 01:44 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,313,454 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
As a mariner who has spent most of my life at sea I can tell you that any ship, no matter how large is in serious trouble if it loses power or steerage in even a moderate storm...Without steerage the ship will lie broadside to the waves, and a wooden vessel of the length you claim for the ark would have been converted to debris within an hour or less.

Obviously it was not converted to debris because it landed on the mountains of Ararat as the flood waters were going off the earth.

Just because modern day people have not built an ark EXACTLY LIKE Noah and have not tested it out does not disprove the ark worked for what it was meant for.

Furthermore, who says there were huge waves during the flooding? Sometimes the sea is very very calm. It is possible the sea was very calm when the earth was being flooded. And for you to reply to that that it is utter nonsense, you can't just say it is, you have to actually PROVE it is with scientific, undeniable evidence.
 
Old 03-26-2012, 01:52 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
29,903 posts, read 30,435,116 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Obviously it was not converted to debris because it landed on the mountains of Ararat as the flood waters were going off the earth.

Just because modern day people have not built an ark EXACTLY LIKE Noah and have not tested it out does not disprove the ark worked for what it was meant for.

Furthermore, who says there were huge waves during the flooding? Sometimes the sea is very very calm. It is possible the sea was very calm when the earth was being flooded. And for you to reply to that that it is utter nonsense, you can't just say it is, you have to actually PROVE it is with scientific, undeniable evidence.
Yeah, right, just like you prove things with scientific, undeniable evidence....
 
Old 03-26-2012, 01:57 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,313,454 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Yeah, right, just like you prove things with scientific, undeniable evidence....
Lest you forget, I take things by faith, not by scientific empirical evidence for what is written in the historical accurate book we call the Bible. It is you who must provide the scientific empirical evidence.

I have provided plenty of evidence for you since you don't take things by faith, however.
 
Old 03-26-2012, 02:22 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
29,903 posts, read 30,435,116 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Lest you forget, I take things by faith, not by scientific empirical evidence for what is written in the historical accurate book we call the Bible. It is you who must provide the scientific empirical evidence.

I have provided plenty of evidence for you since you don't take things by faith, however.
Translation....I just make stuff up, or use stuff that others have made up...
 
Old 03-26-2012, 02:43 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,313,454 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
I just make stuff up, or use stuff that others have made up...
I know you do.
 
Old 03-26-2012, 03:02 PM
 
4,476 posts, read 4,186,871 times
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http://redwhiteandscrewed.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/jesus-christ-head.jpg (broken link)

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+



+



= Eusebius
 
Old 03-26-2012, 03:29 PM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,114,678 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Right, that's why I say there really was a world-wide flood. It is
historical fact. Genesis was written as history, not just a pithy
story.
Well, I don't think you've ever actually studied how the ancient writers of Iron Age Israel viewed history (apart from a Sunday School teaching that "the Bible is true"), or how modern historians work either. If you had - you would have found that, contrary to our modern notions of "objective" history with an attempt at non-bias, the very concept would have been alien to most ancient writers. Ancient works that included historical data also used that historical data to theologize, or to polemicize, or to politicize. In addition, the recording of stories of the past were almost always meant to entertain.

Marc Zvi Brettler (one of those dreaded biblical scholars that have actually studied the historicity of the events in the Hebrew Bible in an informed and professional manner - as opposed to a Sunday School approach that says "the Bible is true") gives a good summation in his book The Creation of History in Ancient Israel, when he writes
The historian Edward Hallet Carr notes, "Study the historians before you begin to study the facts." He continues with an analogy:
The facts are really not at all like the fish on the fishmonger's slab. They are like fish swimming about in a vast and sometimes inaccessible ocean; and what the historian catches will depend, partly on chance, but mainly on what part of the ocean he chooses to fish in and what tackle he chooses to use - these two factors being, of course, determined by the kind of fish he wants to catch.
This is a good description of the modern author of history, who is "swimming" in facts, and whose biases may be discerned. The authors of modern historical works are typically known: we know when they wrote, with whom they have studied, where they taught, and with which political or ideological groups they align themselves. This is even true to an extent of some ancient historians - we know that Herodotus wrote The Histories and that Thucydides wrote History of the Peloponnesian War, there is a scholarly consensus on when these two classical historians lived and wrote, and these two classical historians refer to earlier historians whose works they knew. Though we do not have full biographies of Herodotus or Thucydides, we have information that serves as a significant guide toward understanding their works. Furthermore, each work contains an important statement of purpose. Though like any statements outlining an author's goal, these are somewhat suspect, they still may help to guide the reader. In contrast, the biblical historical books are written anonymously and the date of their final composition and of the sources that they have integrated is extensively debated. In addition, no biblical historical book contains a statement of purpose, like that found in Herodotus or Thucydides.
(p. 135, Routledge, 1995)
You see, there are definite differences between the biblical historical books and books that actually claim to be historical - like Herodotus and Thucydides. Even with the claims of historicity, Herodotus is full of unreliable information, and Thucydides creates entire conversations for characters in his history (and Thucydides is considered by many to be THE first historian approaching the ideas of what constitutes an accurate, historical approach to recording "history"). You automatically assume that the Biblical authors were just writing down history - like any good historian would be doing in today's age - without even stopping to investigate WHAT historical recording is, and whether it even existed back then.

When you claim things like "GENESIS WAS WRITTEN AS HISTORY, NOT JUST A PITHY STORY" you really reveal your lack of familiarity with the work on a deeper level. You probably assume it was written by one person (Moses, no doubt), has one theological outlook (which it doesn't), accurately records historical events (It doesn't, no matter how much you claim it does), and was written down all at once in one place. I've offered some earlier posts to show the fallacy of such a belief - largely ignored by you - and this doesn't surprise me. This is why Fundamentalists like yourself are stuck in the past, while the rest of the world moves on, ignoring anything you might be trying to contribute to modern Theology. Time to catch up! You haven't even caught up to Spinoza in the 1600s, for Pete's sake....

Given your lack of historical training, I'd love to hear your justification of your statement "Genesis was written as history, not just a pithy story" - a contradiction, since it's not just one story to begin with. But then again - most of the people in this thread know that not much is getting through to you, it's just amusing to see how far someone will go in today's age to cling to old, out-dated ideas that have been shown to be wrong for hundreds of years now. Where's that popcorn gif that was thrown up a while ago?
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