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Old 03-07-2012, 08:41 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuixoticHobbit View Post
The original flood story was written in Mesopotamia and predates the Bible's hand-me-down version by millenia. The characters of Noah or Bible god hadn't even been created then. So the whole discussion is moot.

And of course, it doesn't make sense that Noah built a ship of that size in 100 years or for any reason. He and his sons wouldn't have been able to build such a vessel themselves and if they had help, it would have been completed much sooner - and that's assuming they had enough lumber and SKILLED shipbuilders on hand which isn't bloody likely at that time and in that area. Wooden vessels of that size are also simply not feasible or seaworthy and in 100 years, the earlier constructed parts of it would have begun to rot already.
The Mesopotamians got an original story (as it is in the Hebrew Bible) from Noah and family after that family kick started the nations again. So Noah carried on board his actual ship all the documents of the lineages beginning from Adam up to his family along with the creation account etc. etc.

It makes perfect sense that Noah built a ship of that size in 100 years for a very good reason, not just as you say "for any reason." It was built to save the animals and his family. They had enough lumber and skilled laborers. It was feasable and sea worthy and did not rot while being built.

Here is something from John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible:

"Genesis 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth,.... That there was such a flood of waters brought upon the earth, is confirmed by the testimonies of Heathen writers of all nations; only instead of Noah they put some person of great antiquity in their nation, as the Chaldeans, Sisithrus or Xisuthrus; the Grecians and Romans, Prometheus or Deucalion, or Ogyges. Josephus (z) says, all the writers of the Barbarian or Heathen history make mention of the flood and of the ark; and he produces the authorities of Berosus the Chaldean, and Hieronymus the Egyptian, who wrote the Phoenician antiquities, and Mnaseas, and many others, and Nicolaus of Damascus: and there are others that Eusebius (a) makes mention of, as Melo, who wrote against the Jews, yet speaks of the deluge, at which a man with his sons escaped; and Abydenus the Assyrian, whose account agrees with this of Moses that follows in many things; as do also what Lucian (b) and Ovid (c) have wrote concerning it, excepting in the name of the person in whose time it was: and not only the Egyptians had knowledge of the universal deluge, as appears from the testimony of Plato, who says (d), that an Egyptian priest related to Solon, out of their sacred books, the history of it; and from various circumstances in the story of Osiris and Typhon, which name they give to the sea, and in the Chaldee language signifies a deluge; and here the Targum of Onkelos renders the word by "Tuphana"; and the Arabs to this day call the flood "Al-tufan"; but the Chinese also frequently speak of the deluge (e); and even it is said the Americans of Mexico and Peru had a tradition of it (f); and the Bramines also (g), who say that 21,000 years ago the sea overwhelmed and drowned the whole earth"

 
Old 03-07-2012, 08:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuixoticHobbit View Post
Yep, too bad there isn't any evidence for a global flood there or anywhere else.
The Grand Canyon is evidence of a global flood for one.

More evidence:
http://missinguniversemuseum.com/Exhibit23.htm

Last edited by Eusebius; 03-07-2012 at 08:57 AM..
 
Old 03-07-2012, 08:51 AM
 
Location: US
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Since Noah's Ark landed in the mountains of Ararat (the mountains rose at the close of the Flood), it is not surprising that Noah's progeny migrated down the new Tigris River valley from the mountains to found the earliest post-Flood civilizations such as Sumer, Akkad, Uruk, and Nimrud (which later became Babylon), Haran, Jericho, and Sidon (Phoenicia), and more distantly, Egypt and the Indus Valley of N.W. India. (The Tigris and the Euphrates rivers were named after two of the four pre-Flood rivers mentioned in the Bible that flowed from the Garden of Eden.)Ancient Babylonian legend speaks of a pre-Flood series of ten kings, the ancient Hindus (N.W India) spoke about a series of Ten Pitris who ruled before the global Flood, and the ancient Egyptians described Ten Shining Ones who ruled consecutively before the Deluge. Like the Bible also says, these pre-Flood patriarchs lived much longer than we do, and this was confirmed by the ancient historians Berosus, Nicolaus of Damascus, Hesiod, Plato, Hecataeus, Mochus, Hieronymus, and Manetho.
The last of these kings in the aforementioned lists was the hero who led seven others aboard a vessel in which they survived the global Flood. In ancient Babylon, the hero's name was Zisudra who spear-headed the survival on the Ark of seven other humans, the Seven Apkallu. In ancient Egypt, the Flood hero was Toth who survived the Deluge along with the Seven Sages. In ancient N.W. India, the hero was Manu who survived the global-Flood "pralaya" with the Seven Rishis. The odds are astronomically long that these supposedly distinct civilizations would have the same legend of a global Flood with eight people surviving from the pre-Flood population that was led by a series of ten kings if it were not real history that happens to corroborate the Genesis account.
And the odds become even longer that Noah's Flood is not an historical fact when one considers the hundreds of tribes from around the world that have ancestral knowledge of the global Flood. And yet, we are expected to ignore this overwhelming evidence because it contradicts current mainstream science and archaeology. Also expected of us to ignore are the many ancient legends from various people-groups that corroborate the Biblical account of the confusion of language at the Tower of Babel where Nimrod (also known as Menrot, Marduk, Merodach, Ninus, Sargon, Shun, Bacchus, and Zarathustra) led an act of defiance against God about 150 years after the Flood which devastated the earth around 2400 B.C.
There are many other ancient historical factors, as well as a plethora of geophysical, biological and anthropological indications that support the Genesis rendering of ancient history which can be gleaned from a variety of resources, such as my book Old Earth? Why Not! The accuracy of Genesis is further attested to therein by an analysis of the ancient Biblical names that were thought to be mythological until modern archaeology confirmed their historicity, names such as Haran, Ur, Nahor, Serug, and the Hittites.
Thanks to modern archaeology, these Biblical Hittites were confirmed to be non-mythological, and were discovered to have also had a legend about the global Flood, the same Deluge recounted in a legend from the Tamils of southern India which was survived by again eight people, Satyavrata (Noah), Sharma (Shem), Charma (Ham), Japati (Japheth), and their wives. The Tamils apparently migrated from the Indus River valley to the south around 1500 B.C. when the Ice Age ice-pack melted because of climatic changes at that time which caused the sea-level to rise about 300 feet, with both inducing migrations of people-groups (such as the Aryans from the north, who moved into the Indus Valley and displaced the Tamil people who already were losing ground to the encroaching ocean at that time).
Warmer than today's ocean-water must have been the evaporation source for the dense cloud-cover that caused the Ice Age, and the source of that warmer ocean-water was the "fountains of the deep" for Noah's Flood. Many ancient Flood legends do speak of water and magma hissing and venting-up through fissures in the earth's crust to cause the Flood, like described in Genesis. This hot-water from below mixed with the pre-Flood ocean-water to inundate the continents (as indicated by the sedimentary strata on the continents), and thereafter settled in the deepened post-Flood basins
Reasonable explanations for the cause of the Ice Age are not forthcoming from old-earth-believing scientists because they do not realize that significantly warmer ocean-water (which caused dense cloud-cover from higher ocean-evaporation rates) must have been the cause of the Ice Age, there is no other viable mechanism that could have resulted in the dense cloud-cover necessitated. When the post-Flood ocean cooled sufficiently, the Ice Age ended around 1500 B.C., which is confirmed by submerged megalithic structures off N.W. India, S. India, and S.W. Japan that were engulfed by the sea when the Ice Age ice-pack melted.
Hundreds of tribal legends and ancient accounts from Egypt, Babylon, and the Indus confirm the account of Noah's Flood from the book of Genesis. These tribes and ancient cultures obviously had no interest in copying a Hebrew account about a global Flood, therefore, all of these accounts must have been independently derived by the various people-groups' ancestors from the eight who were on the vessel that endured the global Flood. When the eight reproduced and spread out across the Middle East, and soon thereafter, much of the world (as some were demonstrably excellent mariners), the memory of the worldwide Flood was retained, and to a not-surprisingly great degree.
James I. Nienhuis is a writer and speaker.

- The Ancients Knew of the Global Flood
 
Old 03-07-2012, 08:55 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
They used Apple computers.

Not quite.

Ever think they wrote it down AFTER the flood, AFTER Noah and family re-kick-started the earth's population?

By the way, God didn't murder anyone.

If the state puts someone to death it is not called murder. Just as the state is our ruler so God is the supreme ruler.
I agree with you on those last two statements...But, as you well know, many people think that the State is a muderer...
 
Old 03-07-2012, 08:57 AM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
Do you think it's possible Christ referenced Noah's flood as a parable? Or does he seem to take it literally?
Yes, I do think that is possible.

All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable. Matthew 13:34
 
Old 03-07-2012, 08:57 AM
 
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I haven't read all of these posts, but I would like to point out one thing.

The known "world" in biblical times was not the entire World as we know it. Knowledge about the size and location of the other continents was non-existent

And yes, there was a big flood in that region. Also in the Grand Canyon and other places. But there is no reason to believe that all the floods happened at the same time. Rains, storms, overflowing river, hurricanes, etc all happened everywhere. They still do. And stories are passed down.... getting bigger and more terrible with each generation's telling.
 
Old 03-07-2012, 08:59 AM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
The world-wide flood is not a "pass it along game" but was written mostly of eye-witness accounts. The other cultures may have passed the story on down.
Neither is the world-wide flood a local flood just at the black sea. Just because one can find villages under that sea does not disprove a world-wide flood. It doesn't make sense that Noah would take a hundred years to build an aircraft carrier size ship if only the black sea was going to get flooded. He could have just mosied along out of the area with the animals if that were the case.
I am not refuting it...I am merely throwing other things out there for disection...
 
Old 03-07-2012, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 6,999,272 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
That's easy to answer. There were only approximately 16,000 animals on a ship the size of a WWII aircraft carrier with three levels.

Of course one can also draw spiritual stories from the ark.
Where do you get the number of all species at that time? Is there really any way for us to know today how many species existed at the purported time of the flood? If you do not take the stories in the OT literally, does that ruin your faith in God's reality? It doesn't mine.
 
Old 03-07-2012, 09:06 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Since Noah's Ark landed in the mountains of Ararat (the mountains rose at the close of the Flood), it is not surprising that Noah's progeny migrated down the new Tigris River valley from the mountains to found the earliest post-Flood civilizations such as Sumer, Akkad, Uruk, and Nimrud (which later became Babylon), Haran, Jericho, and Sidon (Phoenicia), and more distantly, Egypt and the Indus Valley of N.W. India.
Hundreds of tribal legends . . . .
James I. Nienhuis is a writer and speaker.

- The Ancients Knew of the Global Flood
Excellent post.
 
Old 03-07-2012, 09:09 AM
 
Location: US
32,530 posts, read 21,941,988 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
I guess my problem with the Noahic story is that it's so darn Hebrew centric. It implies we all descended from Hebrews, or people with Hebrew names, at least. If we all descended from Noah a merely 4000 years ago, why don't we all look like Jews?
I hope that you are just being facetious...The Hebrews did not come about until Abraham...They called themselves the Iber, which in Hebrew means 'from the other side, or crossed over', indicating the River that they crossed over migrating to Canaan...
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