Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
How could ANYBODY be wrong? And my grandfather chased dancing ghosts with a Bible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Paul was pointing out that there are those teachers who are qualified to know what they are talking about and those teachers who are not qualified. Sectarianism has its roots in improper understanding of the Scriptures.
And how do you know you have it right, someone else has it wrong?
Last edited by EinsteinsGhost; 03-23-2012 at 01:36 PM..
Originally Posted by Eusebius Since they did know they were correct.
Quote:
How could ANYBODY be wrong? And my grandfather chased dancing ghosts with a Bible.
They are wrong if they are not correct. They are not correct if their understanding does not line up with a properly translated and properly "rightly divided" bible.
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius Paul was pointing out that there are those teachers who are qualified to know what they are talking about and those teachers who are not qualified. Sectarianism has its roots in improper understanding of the Scriptures.
Quote:
And how do you know you have it right, someone else has it wrong?
They are wrong if they are not correct. They are not correct if their understanding does not line up with a properly translated and properly "rightly divided" bible.
Do you have an example? Because, I'm afraid, each one of them would say exactly the same thing you just did. But they are wrong, you're right. How?
It's physically impossible to have had a worldwide flood. Like it or not - it just can't happen like that. Floods happen when there's too much water that falls on the earth's landmasses at certain points and it builds up before it drains back out to the ocean. Or they happen when strong winds and currents drive the water temporarily up onto land masses and flood coastal areas.
The earth only has so much water, and you can't "create" enough water to actually raise the levels of the oceans by any degree like the Noah story. Even if all the ice caps just melted all at once (which obviously didn't happen) it wouldn't raise the water enough to flood all the land masses. It would flood coastal areas.
So no - the flood didn't happen because there's no physical way so much water would ever exist to build it to that level. It's just a story. There's no proof of this flood anywhere on earth either way. That would be a nice starting point.
Hi whoppers,
Thanks for your very fine post. Very well done.
I am curious what you think about this as regards JEDP Theory:
basic.theology.forums > JEPD Theory (http://www.basictheology.com/definitions/JEPD_Theory/ - broken link)
Thanks for the links. I will point out two major flaws in the site's approach, and why I don't ultimately agree with it.
1- The Documentary Hypothesis did not arise from Form Criticism - to the contrary, Source Criticism arose first, since it was an examination of the written sources that are contained in the final form of the Pentateuch. This approach was consolidated, given it's "definitive" form and popularized by Julius Wellhausen in the 1800s (though the approach had existed for much longer than that, and has since evolved drastically). Form Criticism arose after that, and was pioneered by Hermann Gunkel. It was this approach that sought to go beyond Source Criticism and laid emphasis on the oral traditions that would have been collected by the JEDP tradents. It posited that, rather than authors, the JEDP tradents should more accurately be called "collectors" of traditions. Literary Criticism arose even later (Robert Alter is known among this school), but is actually (in mine and others opinion) just a throwback to pre-source and form criticism days with definite theological biases in many cases. This approach takes the text in it's final form, and in it's final form - with virtually no recourse to how the final form reached that state. Many issues are clouded by ignoring source and form-critical findings.
So - to sum up my first point: the article seems to have the order wrong.
2- It claims that Source Criticism (specifically Pentateuchal JDEP theory) stands or falls on the question of the name of God. This is not true.
a) The criteria for establishing what source a document belongs to, using the name of God, is only possible up until Exodus and Yahweh's revelation of his name to Moses in one source. Technically, after that point - the name of God is not a determining factor in fixing a source.
b)Which brings us to the many other criteria that goes into the JEDP theory and source criticism. I won't go into them here, but reccoment you to Richard Elliot Friedmann's book Who Wrote the Bible? - for he deals with this exact, same issue in much greater detail.
So - to sum up this second point: despite the article's attempt to show that the entire enterprise (both Source and Form criticism) depends on the name of God - this is not true.
So - the article makes a good attempt at refuting the concept, and in showing how it is not needed for biblical studies, but it has a basic misunderstanding of both Source and Form Criticism. I would appeal to a more accurate source. The book I mentioned is an excellent one, and it's written by someone whom I would label as strongly in favor of the historicity of the Bible, and a person of strong faith. So you won't get a liberal, biased, anti-Bible approach in this book. I think you would enjoy it.
Personally, I believe that Source Criticism is important for biblical studies and it removes MANY of the contradictions that non-religionists like to attack. For instance, the contradictions in the Flood narrative are easily explained by it's composite nature. Unlike the two Creation Accounts (Genesis 1 = P, Genesis 2-3 = J) - there is no neat separation between J and P. Whoever has edited them together has tried to do so skillfully, but the seams are showing, and these seams appear to be contradictions to many people - but are actually just a result of the composite traditions about the Flood. Now - this does not require that one abandon one's belief in the Flood - it just shows that the Israelites had several different traditions concerning the Flood, and the final editor wanted to preserve both of them.
Claus Westermann, in his smaller version of his Genesis commentary, sums up the features and the alleged problems as thus:
we shall list the most important differences between J and P in the Flood narrative.
(1) There are many stylistic differences, including J's use of the divine name "Yahweh" and P's use of "Elohim."
(2) P includes a continuous precise chronology, whereas J gives only a few rough estimates of the time involved. P even includes the precise day on which the Flood began and ended (7:11; 8:5), as well as precise information about the duration of its various stages and Noah's age, and the exact dimensions of the ark.
(3) There are several contradictions. According to J, seven pairs of all the clean animals enter the ark and one pair each of the unclean animals (7:2-3); according to P, there was one pair of each (6:19-20; 7:15-16). According to J, after seven days rain falls for forty days (7:4); according to P, the water rises for 150 days (7:24) and recedes for 150 days (8:3).
(4) The P narrative has been preserved in its entirety; from the J narrative, we are missing the announcement of the Flood, the command to build the ark, and the departure from the ark. On the other hand, J has elements not found in P: Noah's sending of the birds (8:6-12) and the sacrifice of the preserved animals (8:20-21). P diverges most from J in its conclusion (9:1-17), the blessing of Noah and the covenant with him, which have no counterpart in J. This section gives P's Flood narrative a more theological cast.
(5) Despite these differences and even a few contradictions, the tradents combined J and P to create a work that tells a coherent and convincing story of the Flood.
(Genesis, p. 51, Trans. David E. Green)
So, we have an account with some problems if read as one big story. Unforunately, many try to do so, and must jump to some strange conclusions. It's my contention that one's Faith can remain perfectly intact (as Westermann's has) by viewing the text as a skillfull combination of several faithful traditions. Many people are scared that even considering the JEDP theory will produce unbelief.
I'm going to borrow Friedmann's method of highlighting the different sources and see how the story looks, when it is separated. I will use Westermann's translation (because I'm too lazy to type out another one), and keep in mind that it is a translation into English of Westerman's original German translation ha ha! The important thing is the sources - so pick a color and start reading! Read each color by itself first - just Green all the way to the end, for example. Then read just blue, for example. Then read it all together to see how it's been woven together. Forgive any typos in the verses - I copied and pasted it, but did the coloring myself.
J Source
P Source
R (Editor) Source
Other
6:5 When Yahweh saw that the wickedness of humankind on earth was great, and every planning and striving of its heart was always only wicked,
6 then Yahweh was sorry that he had made humankind on earth, and he was grieved at heart. 7 And Yahweh said: I will wipe out humankind whom I have created from the face of the earth, from humans to beasts, reptiles and birds of heaven, because 1 am sorry that I have made them. 8 But Noah had found favor in the eyes of Yahweh. 9 This is the story of Noah. Noah was a just man. He was blameless among his contemporaries; Noah walked with God.
10 And Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
11 But the earth was corrupt in God's eyes, the earth was full of violence.
12 God looked at the earth and it was certainly corrupt, because all flesh had corrupted its way of life on earth.
13 And God said to Noah: 1 have decided to put an end to all flesh, because the earth is full of violence because of it. And so I will wipe it from the earth.
14 Make an ark for yourself out of gopher wood, make it with rooms, and coat it inside and outside with pitch.
15 T/7MS shall you make it: its length is to be 300 cubits, its width 50 cubits, and its height 30 cubits.
16 Make a roof on the ark at the top (according to the cubit you shall make it], and the door of the ark you are to put in the side of the ark, a lower second and third deck you shall make.
17 But I am now unleashing the Flood upon the earth, so as to destroy all flesh under heaven that has in it the breath of life, everything that is on the earth shall perish.
18 But with you I am setting up a covenant: You are to go into the ark, you and your sons and your wife and the wives of your sons with you.
19 And from all that lives, from all flesh, you are to bring two of each into the ark, to keep them alive with you; there is to be a male and a female of each.
20 Of the birds according to their kind and of the animals according to their kind, of every thing that creeps upon the ground, two of each are to come to you to be kept alive.
21 You are to take every sort of food that is eaten, and store it up, that it may serve as food for you and them. 22 And Noah did everything, just as God had commanded him.
7:1 And Yahweh said to Noah: Go into the ark, you and your whole household, for you I have found just before me among this race. 2 Of all clean animals take seven each, male and female, and of the animals that are not clean, two of each, male and female,
3 (and of the birds of the air seven each, male and female, 1 to keep their kind alive on earth.
4 For seven days from now I will bring rain upon the earth for forty days and forty nights, and every existing thing that I have made I will wipe from the earth.
5 And Noah did everything that Yahweh had commanded him.
6 And Noah was 600 years old, when the Flood (water] came upon the earth. 7 And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons' wives went into the ark to escape the waters of the Flood.
8 Of the clean animals and of the animals that are not clean, and of the birds and of all that crawls on the earth,
9 two of each, male and female, went into the ark with Noah, as God had commanded Noah.
10 And after seven days the waters of the Flood came upon the earth.
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month. On this day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of heaven were opened.
12 And rain poured upon the earth for forty days and forty nights.
13 On this very day Noah and his sons Shem, Ham, and Japheth and Noah's wife and the three wives of his sons went into the ark,
14 they and all wild animals according to their kinds, and all cattle according to its kind, and all thtit crawls on the earth according to its kind, and all birds according to their kinds, all winged birds.
15 And they went into the ark to Noah, two and two of all flesh that had the breath of life in them.
16 And those that went in were male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him. And Yahweh shut the door behind him.
17 Then the Flood came [for forty days] upon the earth, and the waters increased and lifted up the ark, so that it was high above the earth.
18 And the waters mounted and increased greatly upon the earth, and the ark floated upon the surface of the waters.
19 And the waters mounted greatly upon the earth, and all the high mountains under heaven's expanse were covered;
20 25 cubits additional the waters rose, so that the mountains were covered.
21 Then all flesh perished, all that moved upon the earth, birds and cattle and wild animals, and all that swarmed upon the earth, and all humankind. 22 Everything that had the breath of life in its nostrils, everything that lived on the dry land, all died.
23 So he wiped out every existing thing on the face of the earth, human beings and animals and crawling things and birds of heaven, all of them were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left and what was with him in the ark.
24 And the waters mounted over the earth for 150 days. Then God thought of Noah and of all the wild animals and cattle that were with him in the ark. And God made a wind blow over the earth so that the waters subsided. 2 And the fountains of the deep were dosed and the windows of heaven; and the rain from heaven was stopped,
3 and the waters receded gradually from the earth, and the waters disappeared at the end of 150 days.
4 And on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat.
5 And the waters continued to recede until the tenth month; on the first day of the tenth month the tops of the mountains became visible.
6 And at the end of forty days Noah opened the window that he had made in the ark 7 and he sent the raven out and it flew to and fro until the water on the earth had dried up. 8 Then he sent the dove to fly away to see if the waters on the earth had subsided further.
9 But the dove did not find any place where it could rest its foot, so it came back to him in the ark, for there was still water over the whole earth. Then he put out his hand, and caught it and brought it back into the ark.
10 He then waited another seven days; then he sent the dove out of the ark again.
11 And the dove returned to him in the evening, and behold, it had a fresh olive leaf in its beak. So Noah knew that the waters had subsided from the earth.
12 Then he waited yet another seven days, and sent the dove out again, and this time it did not come back to him.
13 In the 601st year of Noah's life, on the first day of the first month, the waters of the earth had dried up. Then Noah removed the roof from the ark, and behold, the surface of the earth was dry.
14 On the twenty-seventh day of the second monthf the earth was completely dry. Then God spoke to Noah and said:
16 Go out of the ark, you and your wife and your sons and your sons' wives with you.
17 And all the animals that are with you, all creatures, birds and cattle and all crawling things that swarm upon the earth, bring them out with you, that they may breed upon the earth, and increase and multiply upon the earth
18 And Noah went out and his sons and his wife and his sons' wives with him.
19 And all the wild animals and all the cattle, all the birds and everything that crawls on the earth, all of them went out of the ark according to their kinds.
20 And Noah built an altar to Yahweh and took of all the clean animals and of all the clean birds and offered burnt offerings upon the altar.
21 And Yahweh smelled the sweet odor and said to himself: Never again will I curse the ground because of human beings; for the inclination of the human heart is evil from its youth. And never again will I slay every living creature, as I have done. 22 While earth lasts, there shall never cease seedtime and harvest, frost and heat, summer and winter, night and day.
So - that is Friedman's diagram of the sources in the Genesis story, mostly agreed upon by scholars. Chapter 9:1-17 is P, and the rest of the Chapter is J, except the last two verses (28-29), which are listed as Other.
Try reading each Source by itself to see how it removes the contradictions. Then read the story in it's entirety, and the contradictions, stylistic differences, etc will be even more noticeable once again.
Anyways - if anyone is so inclined, give it a shot.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Read each color by itself first - just Green all the way to the end, for example. Then read just blue, for example. Then read it all together to see how it's been woven together. Forgive any typos in the verses - I copied and pasted it, but did the coloring myself.