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How is it that the apostles were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ? People will die for what they believe to be true, but no one will die for what they know to be a lie.
'Belief' and reality are two different things my friend. Billions believe and have believed in lies (they THOUGHT or BELIEVED were true) and died for them.
You need to get a grip on yourself. 'Annals' was written in 116CE. and Tacitus is relating what he had heard about a group called Christians that worshipped someone they called 'Christ'. It's not proof or even decent evidence that your Jesus existed. Live with it!
I believe scholars who are qualified in their field and who have studied the subject. I don't believe YOUR scholars who invariably buy their qualifications from Christian 'diploma mills and then go work for 'Answers in Genesis' and the 'Creation Research Institute'. We all know who they are don't we? People like Ray 'Banana Man' Comfort.
It's Jesus THE Christ. If you are going to argue for it, at least get the terms right.
So did some of the Roman gods so what's your point?
Oh...almost forgot:
Do you accept that Josephus mentioning Hercules is proof that Hercules existed in the same way that you accept Josephus mentioning Jesus, is proof that Jesus existed? This will be the forth time I have asked you this question. You keep avoiding it. That's very telling you know.
.....and what about all me other questions to you that you have ignored?
See my responses to BajanYankee on pages 7 and 8 of this thread. My first response to BanjanYankee is towards the middle of page 7. You and your atheist pals have been debunked. It was my pleasure.
How is it that the apostles were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ? People will die for what they believe to be true, but no one will die for what they know to be a lie.
Wouldn't you think the apostles would have renounced Christianity to save their own lives if Jesus was simply a myth? What would they have gained by dying for a myth?
I think you're absolutely correct about this, and I agree that people who die as martyrs for their faith must be either sincere or severely coerced (e.g., Jonestown). It's not evidence that the belief is true, though; we have lots of evidence of people dying for any number of mutually exclusive beliefs (suicide bombers, Heaven's Gate, etc.)
Again you're obscuring rather fundamental material differences.
"Fundamental" materialdifferences? That's like a Jumbo Elephant, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel O. McClellan
My point is that local attestation to a movement based on the teachings of a single individual within a few decades of his putative existence is not insignificant evidence that that individual existed, irrespective of the kinds of events his tradition arrogates.
It's not evidence at all. At least not of Jesus Christ, anyway. It's only evidence that people believed in Jesus, which is the same evidence we have today.
How is it that the apostles were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ?
Well first of all you are going to have to show that they existed before claiming that they died. If you can do that, you are then going to show that they died 'willingly', as martyrs. How do you know that they were given the chance to live if they renounced their beliefs and chose not to...perhaps they were not given the choice.
Quote:
The apostles were eye witnesses to the risen from the grave Jesus Christ. They knew he was the Son of God. And they each were willing to die because they too knew that their death was not the end of their life.
That's according to the Bible. Can you support this claim extant of the Bible?
Quote:
Truth never penetrates an unwilling mind.
J.L. Borges
Yeah...we know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alter2Ego
You and your atheist pals have been debunked. It was my pleasure.
[quote=Alter2Ego;23319392]Tacitus confirmed the existence of Jesus (a real historical person) by writing the following in his writings called ANNALS: [/quote]
Tacitus did not "confirm" the existence of Jesus. You "confirm" something by looking at a source. What source was Tacitus reviewing that would allow him to "confirm" Jesus' existence. Those sources (the ones you mentioned) still exist today. If they confirmed the existence of Jesus, I am sure that biblical scholars would have been all over that information centuries ago.
"And immediately his fame spread abroad throughout all the region round about Galilee." - Mark 1:28
ALTER2EGO:
Did you read the context within which I gave this response? Your pal Rafius argued that Jesus Christ should have been known throughout Palestine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel O. McClellan
The simple fact is that early first-century Palestine is not very thoroughly covered in the historical record,....
....which is surprising don't you think, considering there was supposed to be someone there that could perform miracles the like of which had not been seen before or since?
The "the region round about Galilee" is a small, specific area. Palestine is a wider area outside. Understood? Below is a weblink that will show you Galilee in relationship to Palestine.
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. - Matthew 27:52 and 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane
Seems like he was supposedly well known and with those kinds of miracles attributed to him (supposedly in his time), I'm sure the news would have spread like wildfire all across the many caravan routes of the day.
ALTER2EGO:
What atheists don't seem to comprehend is that Christianity was a very new religion. Jesus Christ preached for only three years before he was executed. In addition, his followers were frequently arrested and beaten or killed—all of which discouraged many people from showing support, for fear of being killed or persecuted themselves.
"Fundamental" materialdifferences? That's like a Jumbo Elephant, right?
It's not evidence at all. At least not of Jesus Christ, anyway. It's only evidence that people believed in Jesus, which is the same evidence we have today.
You don't appear to be paying attention to what I'm saying, and I'm not really here to play the "Nu-uh!" game with hobbyists, so I'll let my argument stand until it's addressed directly.
ALTER2EGO:
Did you read the context within which I gave this response? Your pal Rafius argued that Jesus Christ should have been known throughout Palestine.
The "the region round about Galilee" is a small, specific area. Palestine is a wider area outside. Understood? Below is a weblink that will show you Galilee in relationship to Palestine.
ALTER2EGO:
What atheists don't seem to comprehend is that Christianity was a very new religion. Jesus Christ preached for only three years before he was executed. In addition, his followers were frequently arrested and beaten or killed—all of which discouraged many people from showing support, for fear of being killed or persecuted themselves.
So you would have me believe that if the Jesus of the Gospels existed (and I mean the guy with all the fanciful miracles alleged to him), that over a three year period, his "fame" stayed around that sea? How often do you hear about a guy walking on water, being born of a virgin, raising dead people from the graves, healing multitudes of all kinds of infirmities and best of all, turning water into wine? None of this got past the confines of Galilee? None of this reached Egypt, the Arabian Peninsula, Rome, Greece, Asia Minor, Persia and elsewhere? I mean, considering how Rome built all those roads and all. Not to mention, the same folks who will tell you that Jesus was not all that well known will tell you that Christianity spread like wildfire right after the [alleged] resurrection.
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