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Old 03-22-2013, 06:58 AM
 
Location: New York City
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I posted a question about this somewhere over on the Christian forum a few years ago, but I can't find it so I will repost the topic here for discussion.

When I was a Christian, I was a staunch supporter of Israel. I supported the Jewish right to their homeland, but it had nothing do with looking at the context of the whole process. My support was based strictly on my understanding of the bible, or better said, what I was taught to understand about the bible. It was my BELIEF, as it still is with a noticeably large portion of American Christians, that the bible predicted the return of the Jews to Israel and there was nothing anyone could do to stop the process because God controlled the whole process. I was able to drag out scripture after scripture that supposedly proved that God was controlling the whole process because the bible predicted it, but then, after years of holding to this notion, something odd came to my attention. I noticed that beyond the Old Testament, there was not ONE clear "prophecy" about the so-called return of the Jews to their homeland. This puzzled me. If such an event was supposed to be one of the ultimate items that stamped the bible as divinely inspired, then why was the NT so silent on the matter?

Why do you think it is?
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:36 AM
 
Location: Long Island
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Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Why do you think it is?
It would be because they are two very different books, written for two very different people.
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:46 AM
 
Location: New York City
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Originally Posted by Juliet Bravo View Post
It would be because they are two very different books, written for two very different people.
Well, you could say, but why do some Christians refer to the OT for prophecies that [supposedly] predict the return of the Jews to Israel in our modern times? Are the Christians terribly mistaken or are they correct to make draw these conclusions on a Jewish book.
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:56 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Well, you could say, but why do some Christians refer to the OT for prophecies that [supposedly] predict the return of the Jews to Israel in our modern times? Are the Christians terribly mistaken or are they correct to make draw these conclusions on a Jewish book.
I am not going to speak for any Jews as I am not Jewish. But I do understand that the OT is not Jewish Scripture and has no relationship to Jewish beliefs. It is a Christianized, edited and revised interpretation of what Christianity wants Judaism to be.

As for the return to a homeland, this is something you will have to ask a Jew about and not assume the Jewish view is in the OT
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:00 AM
 
Location: NY
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Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Well, you could say, but why do some Christians refer to the OT for prophecies that [supposedly] predict the return of the Jews to Israel in our modern times? Are the Christians terribly mistaken or are they correct to make draw these conclusions on a Jewish book.
Christians accept both the Old Testament and New Testament as prophitable for teaching. Although they generally consider OT law fulfilled under Christ and no longer applicable, fulfillment of the law doesn't negate the importance or acceptance of other OT prophesies or teachings.

I am not sure there was any practical or doctrinal need to restate that prophecy in the NT.
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:26 AM
 
Location: Long Island
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Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Well, you could say, but why do some Christians refer to the OT for prophecies that [supposedly] predict the return of the Jews to Israel in our modern times? Are the Christians terribly mistaken or are they correct to make draw these conclusions on a Jewish book.

The Tanakh does predict the the Jews will return to Israel, but it will be part of the messianic age. It will occur when the Temple is rebuilt, when there is an end to conflict and bigotry, when we beat our swords into plowshares. But Christianity has spent millennia using Jewish prophecy to put Jesus into the role of messiah. They have no choice but to advance it; to fail to do so would be to contradict the very prophecy used to legitimatize their theology.

As for seeing it in the creation of the state of Israel, I'd chalk it up to the fascination with predicting the arrivial of the messiah. Christians look at Jewish prophesy much differently than Jews do, and they "see" signs of the end everywhere. There's a proverb that sums up the typical Jewish outlook on it: If you are planting a tree and they proclaim that the messiah has arrived, first finish planting the tree. Then go and look.

Of course, I see the establishment of the modern state of Israel to be a great acheivement; it is the first time in nearly two thousand years that Jews have had a homeland where they could choose their future and be free from persecution for following our traditions. But it is not the fulfillment of prophecy.

As the whether of not I think Christians are correct, I'd have to say no. Otherwise, I would have stayed a Christian.
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
I posted a question about this somewhere over on the Christian forum a few years ago, but I can't find it so I will repost the topic here for discussion.

When I was a Christian, I was a staunch supporter of Israel. I supported the Jewish right to their homeland, but it had nothing do with looking at the context of the whole process. My support was based strictly on my understanding of the bible, or better said, what I was taught to understand about the bible. It was my BELIEF, as it still is with a noticeably large portion of American Christians, that the bible predicted the return of the Jews to Israel and there was nothing anyone could do to stop the process because God controlled the whole process. I was able to drag out scripture after scripture that supposedly proved that God was controlling the whole process because the bible predicted it, but then, after years of holding to this notion, something odd came to my attention. I noticed that beyond the Old Testament, there was not ONE clear "prophecy" about the so-called return of the Jews to their homeland. This puzzled me. If such an event was supposed to be one of the ultimate items that stamped the bible as divinely inspired, then why was the NT so silent on the matter?

Why do you think it is?
The death of Christ brought salvation to the gentiles so the focus in the NT is taken off Israel. A new convenant was established fullfilling Jeremiah 31:31–34. The NT is about spiritual truths and living a Godly life. It is certainly not void of prophecies. Jesus gave several prophecies about the end times. The parable of the fig tree can refer to the blooming of Israel. Amazingly enough, Israel has bloomed and turning a desert wasteland into one of the world's major agriculture producers. They are an important power player in world politics as well.
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Old 03-22-2013, 09:43 AM
 
Location: New York City
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Ok, here is how I saw it after the narrow-minded views I had on the matter fell by the way side.

The notion that the Old Testament predicted the return of the Jews to their homeland is true on one hand and false on the other. Now, whether these predictions were made AFTER the fact is another subject. You see, SOME Christians overlook the idea that the predictions were made, NOT for modern Jews, but rather, the Babylonian Jews in exile 600 years before the New Testament era. The Jewish writers (speaking through prophets), notably men like Jeremiah and Ezekiel, predicted a return to the homeland. Their alleged predictions almost clearly were made for THAT specific time in Jewish history and not, as SOME Christians believe, thousands of years in the future. By the New Testament era, the Jews had long since returned (as was predicted) from Babylon and rebuilt their temple. That was about it. The remaining glorious details never came to pass, primarily the great predictions of Israel's rise to prominence over all the nations and Jerusalem becoming the central location for ALL nations to worship the god of Israel. If anything, Israel simply went from being subjects from one empire to another with only a relatively brief exception of some independence during their Hasmonean dynasty. Even that caused civil strife because the Hasmoneans were NOT from the tribe of Judah. Rather, they were from Ephraim and this did not set well with the more fanatical Jews who believed that only a descendant of David from the the tribe of Judah should sit on Israel's throne, but that too is another subject, thus I digress.

By the New Testament times, to the Jews, the Old Testament prophecies of a Jewish return and a rebuilt temple was a thing of the distant past. They were fulfilled already. There was no need or discussion and I posit, this is why the NT is practically silent on the subject. The only thing being discussed at the time was the elimination of Israel's enemies (at this point it was Rome) and this coming by the hands of a promised messiah. At this point, the point of focus was NOT a return to the land, but rather, an expectation of the messiah to consecrate the temple and elevation to Jewish supremacy over all the nations.

For the Christian on the other hand, those who feel the need to find any evidence they believe supports their idea that the bible is a divinely inspired book with evidence of fulfilled prophecies, this particular prophecy is huge for their agenda. Unlike other prophecies in the bible that were made and fulfilled IN the bible, this one could only be fulfilled long after the biblical canons were settled. So instead of looking back and seeing that already WERE fulfilled, they look beyond the last book (Revelation) and paint the fulfillment into modern times. They use the very Jewish scriptures that were supposedly ALREADY fulfilled to prove their point that those scriptures are being fulfilled today.

One area of the Jewish scriptures that has been touted as one of those fulfilled scriptures in modern times and is still being fulfilled is Ezekiel 38 and 39. Back in the 1970s and 1980s when the Soviet Union was still in existence and posed a foreboding threat to the U.S and Israel, many Christians predicted that the Soviet Union (Magog they claim) was poised to invade Israel and Armageddon would ensue, but if they took a closer look at the passage, they would see that the language of the passage was clearly meant for those times in which they were written. Horses, bows, arrows, fortress walls, swords are the language of war used in the passages. These things are not what you think of in modern times when you talk about modern warfare. In fact, if these prophecies were to have come to pass back then, they were even fulfilled back then, as there is no record of any mass invasion of the Jewish homeland from the north that came about after they were settled after a return from exile. If anything, they were left in peace during their 200 years under Persian rule. For the Christian, with the fall of the Soviet Union, they had to rethink their predictions and to be honest, I have no idea who they are touting as Gog and Magog these days.
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Old 03-22-2013, 11:56 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Well, you could say, but why do some Christians refer to the OT for prophecies that [supposedly] predict the return of the Jews to Israel in our modern times? Are the Christians terribly mistaken or are they correct to make draw these conclusions on a Jewish book.
The prophesies would show that Jesus wasn't coming anytime soon 1,900 years ago. So I think they are just refitted to whatever time you are at. If the prophesies aren't finished, then it would show Jesus wasn't coming in the next minute to finish proving he was the Messiah.
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Old 03-23-2013, 01:55 AM
 
Location: Perpetuality On Wheels
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It is the conclusion shared by a theology friend and a long time pastor friend who indicated that modern day Israel has nothing to do with OT doctrine at all.
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