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In fact daylight could leave such marks, too. But there are problems with all the scenarios. The problem with radiation is that it would discolour the whole interior of the shroud, not paint a neat negative image. In fact only daylight would do that.
Further, the image is flat. If that cloth had been draped over a body, let alone wrapped around it, it would never have resulted in a flat image like that, but a grossly distorted one.
Try the experiment yourself with a plastic doll, some paint and a a few tissues. you'll soon see that, whatever the shroud is, it isn't Jesus' burial shroud.
It's relevant because that image, apart from that damning fact is forensically accurate in the depiction of a crucified Jewish Nazorene, give or take the wrist, feet and side-wound bloodstains, which are a bit pinkish for old blood.
Without that, we have only the Gospel accounts and they are far from convincing about that spear -wound. With that spear-jab, Jesus would be in a bad way if not definitely dead. Without that, after just a few hours, survival is almost a safe bet.
You are doing alot of guessing here. It was wrapped around the body, and that was proved. There was no paint in the image. You just haven't done your homework.
You are doing alot of guessing here. It was wrapped around the body, and that was proved. There was no paint in the image. You just haven't done your homework.
I havent? I'm open to any feasible explantion of how that image could come from a wrapped body. Go for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucidkitty
What do you think it is then?
Frankly I don't know. It really is a puzzle. The idea of a camera obscura making an image on a cloth primed with egg-wash and pee is the only mechanism that comes close to the ancient photography we seem to need, but that must date the object to the renaissance, which can't be as the image is definitely attested in the medieval period, unless it was decided that a more convincing image was needed than the evidently painted one owned by the de Charnys, but that conspiracy theory has a lot of problems, too.
The claim that it was shown to be 1st century cloth has collapsed and the C14 date, which seemed to settle the matter is contested (1) and obviously fresh dating is required. The story leading back to Constantinople, Edessa and early Christians is ingenious and persuasive, so who really knows? I'm wide open even to it really being the relic of a dead crucified leader.
(1) because of possible contamination involving mould which would add more C14 giving an apparently more recent date
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth
About the spear-jab, do we know how deep it went? Do we know the angle at which it entered? Depending on the answers to these questions, it could have missed internal organs. He could have survived it. Do we even know if all aspects of these Biblical accounts are accurate, and that they weren't tampered with after the first Church Council? Curious that we're relying on a religious document to prop up arguments, as if it were an accurate historical one. It's all we have to go by, but that doesn't mean that it's reliable.
Quite true, though you'd expect Roman soldiers to know to make sure a spear thrust was effective. But I don't see the problem as the story tampered with by Eusebius (Constantine's Goebbels, not our posting pal here ) but the story being largely fake when written, and the synoptics clearly diverging in the way they edited the story and Matthew and Luke added their own contradictory resurrection accounts, just as they invented contradictory nativities and apparently contradictory deaths of Judas, too. The fiddling was done long before Eusebius got his paws on the story.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 04-08-2012 at 06:44 PM..
I havent? I'm open to any feasible explantion of how that image could come from a wrapped body. Go for it.
I place no credibility to any of this . . . but to answer your question about a flat image. Think Star Trek Transporter and the image trace resulting NOT from contact with the body . . . but from radiant transfer as the body was "transported" upward through the cloth. You asked for a feasible explanation . . . not necessarily a real one. Anyway . . . this type of speculation about such relics is distraction only, IMO.
This is a really touchy subject...much like some who believe that Jesus would not be divine if it was found out that his father had sex with MARY.....or that MARY went on to have a whole brood of kids with Joe...Christians who are magic and myth dependent find the idea that JESUS....who lived as a human and did human things - disturbing...One can not base a faith around virgin birth or rising from the dead...it was the life of Jesus and what he taught that is divine.
YES he could have survived he execution..They did not smash his legs like they usually do...and the water that gushed from his side may have resulted for heavy drinking...and the other thing...Joesph of Arimethea his uncle may actually have been his father..who some how get written out of the bible...
This man was so powerful and divine he could probably get his heart beat down to nothing and
survive...
If this did happen...and his uncle or father took the body away..they may have revived him...all in all- This does not effect him being possessed and lived in by God...CHRIST was a dwelling place for God on earth..Did he love woman...............yes.....and his friends were perturbed when he constantly kissed Mary Magdelan on the lips...
To under stand the Christ in more human terms brings him closer---God does not need smoke and mirrors ---or miracles....the mind and heart of Christ was a miracle..he tried to teach us that we were also a miracle---it was religion that insisted we were less.
I place no credibility to any of this . . . but to answer your question about a flat image. Think Star Trek Transporter and the image trace resulting NOT from contact with the body . . . but from radiant transfer as the body was "transported" upward through the cloth. You asked for a feasible explanation . . . not necessarily a real one. Anyway . . . this type of speculation about such relics is distraction only, IMO.
That theory was already suggested in early shroud books with a resurrection radiation flash. As I said, that would simply black (or white) out the whole cloth interior. We have to have a contact print. But even then, as I say, a cloth wrapped around the body would give a grossly distorted image. That it was a photographic -type flat image was clear right from the time Secondo Pia washed his first prints
As to speculations about such relics, I deal in evidence. While the relic would be an astounding artefact if true, I have no basis for dismissing it. The evidence for it being some kind of image of a crucified Nazorene is far better than the evidence for either of the sepulchres, for example. The shroud is, at this moment, (in my view, I admit ) still far better evidence for a historical Jesus than any of those fabricated gospels.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 04-08-2012 at 08:00 PM..
Reason: mention of Secondo Pia
You are doing alot of guessing here. It was wrapped around the body, and that was proved. There was no paint in the image. You just haven't done your homework.
if all this is true; the whole jesus story ..why are so many props needed to persuade people? The truth doesn't need enhancement, like shrouds and other miraculous stuff. I think the shroud is just another one of those things to get more people believing (or doubting their non belief) and attracting more members to the church....maybe it was a painting done to look like a negative image to confuse everyone and it worked, it's fooled many and is still being studied.
I would agree with you, Maggie, and it is indeed used as faith -icon, but the fact is that it is a darn convincing one. You couldn't produce a fake like that today - we haven't been able to duplicate it today, though as I say, the camera obscura, though not spot on, comes far closer than anything I've seen.
Who knows, maybe someday someone will do a renaissance - style painting of a crucified corpse, launder it as the monks did as a test (ouch! That's like putting the Domesday book in dishwasher) and produce a convincing replica. But how did the painter know that the nails went through the wrist, not the palms? As all the Mystical stigmatists got consistently wrong, God apparently backing up their mistake.
I can't help it -I find that blasted cloth fascinating and puzzling and is a far, far better case for the Jesus story than all the piffle that William Craig and his Ilk come out with.
who knows maybe the artist was a serial killer who tested nailing to crosses and torture based on the bible and other stories...He/they may have studied Roman torture methods because they were experts at prolonging suffering!
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I'm open to any feasible explantion of how that image could come from a wrapped body. Go for it.
) but the story being largely fake when written, and the synoptics clearly diverging in the way they edited the story and Matthew and Luke added their own contradictory resurrection accounts, just as they invented contradictory nativities and apparently contradictory deaths of Judas, too. The fiddling was done long before Eusebius got his paws on the story.
) still far better evidence for a historical Jesus than any of those fabricated gospels.
