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Old 04-07-2012, 11:14 AM
Status: "Current ear worm - charming Billy..." (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Whoville....
21,823 posts, read 15,913,968 times
Reputation: 11384
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
So why wouldn't you want all this to be easier and better for everyone including yourself and family? I don't get it at all. You'd really cover everyone and probably pay less than you do right now. It only needs your cooperation not your pocket book. We pay more now to ignore the issue. It just needs your moral obligation.
Moral obligation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It woudln't be easier for my family. Just more expensive. No, they need my pocket book. If they didn't need my pocketbook, they wouldn't need me on board at all. They do need my pocketbook that's why they need me on board. Who do you think is going to pay the bill for all the poeple who just don't want to pay? The poor are already covered and I have no qualms about paying their way if they are, truely, needy. They don't need socialized medicine. I'm already covered, I don't need socialized medicine. That leaves people who have the income to provide for themselves who simply choose not to. I don't feel an obligation to them. My moral obligation is to the poor and that has been met.

As I've said, the poor are covered under the current system. Here's the brochure for the free health care offered by Michigan for pregnant women and children...of course it is need based.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/md...s_185217_7.pdf

In addition, there are free clinics and the health center. Sorry but I'm not seeing where those who cannot provide for themselves are not covered. The ones I see whining are those who are deemed to be able to provide for themselves but don't want to. My dad, often, worked two jobs to keep the bills paid and my mom worked too. You do what you have to to take care of your family.

Though if we do go to socialized medicine, dh and I can divorce and save ourselves about $4k in taxes every year so we might just come out ahead. The only thing stopping us from divorcing to get out from under the marriage penalty is that we'd have to buy our medical insurance individually and that wipes out the savings.
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Old 04-07-2012, 11:20 AM
Status: "Turn off the news, get healthy!" (set 6 days ago)
 
5,182 posts, read 2,452,664 times
Reputation: 3792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
It woudln't be easier for my family. Just more expensive. No, they need my pocket book. Who do you think is going to pay the bill for all the poeple who just don't want to pay? The poor are already covered. They don't need socialized medicine. I'm already covered, I don't need socialized medicine. That leaves people who have the income to provide for themselves who simply choose not to. I don't feel an obligation to them. My moral obligation is to the poor and that has been met.

As I've said, the poor are covered under the current system. Here's the brochure for the free health care offered by Michigan for pregnant women and children...of course it is need based.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/md...s_185217_7.pdf
Watch or read those links from CNN I left ya. You will see it that we pay three times the amount we could pay. Anyway, it's not about the money, it's about making sure everyone really does get what they need, not what they want but need. You keep arguing health care without giving me any religious reasons you ignore the need, the need isn't there to you, fine. If you don't have any other related questions then you can head on over to the political or health forum and talk away.
I told you you gave me an answer from what I can tell by your previous posts to my questions. Sort of. Best I can get I guess. This isn't a health care debate. It's specific to religion and politics combined.
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Old 04-07-2012, 11:25 AM
Status: "Current ear worm - charming Billy..." (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Whoville....
21,823 posts, read 15,913,968 times
Reputation: 11384
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
Watch or read those links from CNN I left ya. You will see it that we pay three times the amount we could pay. Anyway, it's not about the money, it's about making sure everyone really does get what they need, not what they want but need. You keep arguing health care without giving me any religious reasons you ignore the need, the need isn't there to you, fine. If you don't have any other related questions then you can head on over to the political or health forum and talk away.
I told you you gave me an answer from what I can tell by your previous posts to my questions. Sort of. Best I can get I guess. This isn't a health care debate. It's specific to religion and politics combined.
If that were the case, we'd be on socialized medicine now. All you need to do is look North to Canada. Socialized medicine will be more expensive because of the layers of beuracracy that we'll have to deal with. And those of us who want a choice in our care will have to do what Canadians do and still purchase private insurance on top of the government policy. No thanks.

My doctor and her husband were Canadian. They moved here because under socialized medicine, they, simply, weren't allowed to earn a decent income. So they set up shop here, both work part time and make more than they would working full time in Canada while paying less taxes. I'm fine with it. I got an excellent doctor out of the deal. It's Canada's loss for chasing her and her husband south of the border.

I answered the question of this thread. Being against socialized medicine has nothing to do with whether or not you're pro abortion or anti abortion. They have nothing to do with each other. I do, however, see the current system taking care of the poor so I don't see taking care of the poor being an issue. The accusation was we dont' care about kids after they're here. My answer is, our current system already takes care of them if their parents can't. End of argument.
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Old 04-07-2012, 12:00 PM
 
1,745 posts, read 1,011,067 times
Reputation: 916
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mind over Chatter View Post
Christians aren't opposed to treating the poor and helping the poor. Matter of fact charity started with Christians.
No, it didn't. And Christian "charity" is really nothing more than a well-funded propaganda machine designed to push their religious beliefs on the poor and disadvantaged.

Quote:
What we are opposed to is making everybody poor and forcing everybody onto the same socialist system that is shown tiime and time again to not work.
The early Christian church was pretty hard core communist/socialist. For example, in Acts chapter 4 it clearly states that the early church was having their members sell everything they have and then give the resulting money to the church. The church would then equally provide for everyone while everyone has what they needed.

A husband and wife decide to withhold a small portion of the money from the sale of their property so that they will have some for themselves on top of what the apostles allow them to have. For this, they are killed. It says that they simply die, giving up their ghost. Unless these people were so old that they simply had heart-attacks from the stress of being accused of being capitalists, it seems likely that either Bible god or the apostles caused their deaths.


Acts 5:1-10
1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostlesí feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
Ole' Peter would make Marx and Stalin proud
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Old 04-07-2012, 12:01 PM
Status: "Turn off the news, get healthy!" (set 6 days ago)
 
5,182 posts, read 2,452,664 times
Reputation: 3792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
If that were the case, we'd be on socialized medicine now. All you need to do is look North to Canada. Socialized medicine will be more expensive because of the layers of beuracracy that we'll have to deal with. And those of us who want a choice in our care will have to do what Canadians do and still purchase private insurance on top of the government policy. No thanks.

My doctor and her husband were Canadian. They moved here because under socialized medicine, they, simply, weren't allowed to earn a decent income. So they set up shop here, both work part time and make more than they would working full time in Canada while paying less taxes. I'm fine with it. I got an excellent doctor out of the deal. It's Canada's loss for chasing her and her husband south of the border.

I answered the question of this thread. Being against socialized medicine has nothing to do with whether or not you're pro abortion or anti abortion. They have nothing to do with each other. I do, however, see the current system taking care of the poor so I don't see taking care of the poor being an issue. The accusation was we dont' care about kids after they're here. My answer is, our current system already takes care of them if their parents can't. End of argument.
No arguing necessary actually.
I've shown you as you could that in reality there are a lot of babies and children slipping through our current system. So many we fall below on the list of countries that actually do do it better. There are a lot of them, not all socialized I might add again. Canada isn't the only one.

It's not that you need to agree or disagree with me on types of coverage. Just looking for a reason why we don't find some system, i've mentioned a few that are not socialized health care systems if you don't like that option, to actually cover the 1/2 of our country that are not currently covered. You keep stating the poor but there is a lot more to it than welfare. Alas though, the republican christians are in opposition to this and we won't have it because of them, so I asked to try and understand the tie. Religion and politics are a mystery to me.

If you can't see that fact we need to improve, it's not the thread to show you. You obviously, imo, ignore a bunch of things so that you can believe you do the moral thing. Our health system stats are all over the place for anyone to see.

Whatever floats your boat, I just wanted to see why and you showed me why it's all ok, under your beliefs for you. Nothing else needed, no argument needed.
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Old 04-07-2012, 12:08 PM
Status: "Current ear worm - charming Billy..." (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Whoville....
21,823 posts, read 15,913,968 times
Reputation: 11384
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
No arguing necessary actually.
I've shown you as you could that in reality there are a lot of babies and children slipping through our current system. So many we fall below on the list of countries that actually do do it better. There are a lot of them, not all socialized I might add again. Canada isn't the only one.

It's not that you need to agree or disagree with me on types of coverage. Just looking for a reason why we don't find some system, i've mentioned a few that are not socialized health care systems if you don't like that option, to actually cover the 1/2 of our country that are not currently covered. You keep stating the poor but there is a lot more to it than welfare. Alas though, the republican christians are in opposition to this and we won't have it because of them, so I asked to try and understand the tie. Religion and politics are a mystery to me.

If you can't see that fact we need to improve, it's not the thread to show you. You obviously, imo, ignore a bunch of things so that you can believe you do the moral thing. Our health system stats are all over the place for anyone to see.

Whatever floats your boat, I just wanted to see why and you showed me why it's all ok, under your beliefs for you. Nothing else needed, no argument needed.
If they are slipping through the cracks, that's because they or their parents are allowing it. We have programs in place for the poor. It's not like we haven't addressed this. So no, I don't see a need for improvement in services for the poor. They're already there for the taking. You just have to show need. If you can't show need, well, then you're on your own as all of us who don't have need are.

There is no tie between being pro life and being anti socialized medicine. None at all. These are two different issues.
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Old 04-07-2012, 12:09 PM
Status: "Turn off the news, get healthy!" (set 6 days ago)
 
5,182 posts, read 2,452,664 times
Reputation: 3792
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuixoticHobbit View Post
No, it didn't. And Christian "charity" is really nothing more than a well-funded propaganda machine designed to push their religious beliefs on the poor and disadvantaged.

The early Christian church was pretty hard core communist/socialist. For example, in Acts chapter 4 it clearly states that the early church was having their members sell everything they have and then give the resulting money to the church. The church would then equally provide for everyone while everyone has what they needed.

A husband and wife decide to withhold a small portion of the money from the sale of their property so that they will have some for themselves on top of what the apostles allow them to have. For this, they are killed. It says that they simply die, giving up their ghost. Unless these people were so old that they simply had heart-attacks from the stress of being accused of being capitalists, it seems likely that either Bible god or the apostles caused their deaths.


Acts 5:1-10
1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
Ole' Peter would make Marx and Stalin proud
These are the exact reasons that I get confused about religion involving politics now. They still use it for pro life when it comes to abortion, why not use it consistently? You either a sacrificing for all Jesus believer or you aren't.
I state freely that to me Republican and Christian are the opposite in belief systems, such a contradiction it doesn't make sense, I'm looking for answers. So far, even odder than the above, the answers I'm getting are money, we want our money, it's ours, others are lazy and just want mine. etc. etc. I can see this as a Republican answer, just not so much the Christian answer.
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Old 04-07-2012, 12:10 PM
Status: "Turn off the news, get healthy!" (set 6 days ago)
 
5,182 posts, read 2,452,664 times
Reputation: 3792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
If they are slipping through the cracks, that's because they or their parents are allowing it. We have programs in place for the poor. It's not like we haven't addressed this. So no, I don't see a need for improvement in services for the poor. They're already there for the taking. You just have to show need. If you can't show need, well, then you're on your own as all of us who don't have need are.

There is no tie between being pro life and being anti socialized medicine. None at all. These are two different issues.
Again, not answering the question. But thanks for attempting.
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Old 04-07-2012, 12:11 PM
Status: "Current ear worm - charming Billy..." (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Whoville....
21,823 posts, read 15,913,968 times
Reputation: 11384
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
These are the exact reasons that I get confused about religion involving politics now. They still use it for pro life when it comes to abortion, why not use it consistently? You either a sacrificing for all Jesus believer or you aren't.
I state freely that to me Republican and Christian are the opposite in belief systems, such a contradiction it doesn't make sense, I'm looking for answers. So far, even odder than the above, the answers I'm getting are money, we want our money, it's ours, others are lazy and just want mine. etc. etc. I can see this as a Republican answer, just not so much the Christian answer.
Accepting "Thou shalt not kill" doesn't mean I have to accept every story in the bible. Some of them are just stories intended to teach us lessons. You also cannot take things out of context. The issue with Ananias and his wife was that they agreed to sell the land and contribute the money and then renegged. As the apostle said, it was theirs to do with as they pleased before. They could have kept it if they wanted to. It's not the fact they chose to keep part. It's the fact they said they'd sell it and donate all of the proceeds and then lied about it. They had the option, all along of saying, we'll sell it and give 75%.
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Old 04-07-2012, 12:16 PM
Status: "Current ear worm - charming Billy..." (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Whoville....
21,823 posts, read 15,913,968 times
Reputation: 11384
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
Again, not answering the question. But thanks for attempting.
How do you think I'm not answering the question? Being pro life has nothing to do with socialized medicine or welfare or anything else. Fortunately, our system looks after the poor so I don't have to. If it didn't I would have to. Churches still do in that they provide assistance to people who need it. There's no contradiction here.
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