Was the Crucifixion of Jesus actually a glorified Jewish lamb sacrifice?

[whoppers]

Originally Posted by Jaymax

It's where we get the term 'scape-goat' from isn't it?

The idea is similar, but the term "scape-goat" comes from the Torah, and has to do with the Day of Purgation/Atonement (as Fox puts it). On that day, the sanctuary was cleansed of ritual pollution, and the collective sins of the people were atoned for.

From the community of the Children of Israel he [Aaron - the High Priest] is to take two hairy goats for a hattat-offering, and one ram for an offering-up.
And Aharon is to bring-near the bull for the hattat-offering that is his, [this purified Aaron so he could approach God]
so that he may effect-atonement on behalf of himself and on behalf of his household.

He is to take the two hairy (goats) and is to stand them before the presence of YHWH,
at the entrance to the Tent of Appointment.
Aharon is to place upon the two hairy (goats) lots,
one lot for YHWH and one lot of Azazel.

Aharon is to bring-near the hairy-one for which the lot of YHWH came up,
and is to designate it as a hattat-offering;
and the hairy-one for which the lot of Azazel came up is to be left standing-alive, before the presence of YHWH,
to effect-atonement upon it,
to send it away to Azazel into the wilderness.
(Leviticus 16:5-10, SB)

Aaron then slays his hattat-offering - the bull, and lights incense to make a covering over the Purgation-Cover. Then he sprinkles some of the blood of the bull on the front of the Purgation-Cover in an east direction, and then sprinkle some before the Purgation-Cover - seven times.

Then he is to slay the hairy-goat of the hattat-offering that is the people's,
and bring its blood inside the curtain,
doing with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull:
he is to sprinkle it on the Purgation-Cover, and before the Purgation-Cover.
So he is to effect-purgation for the Holy-Shrine
from the tum'ot ("pollutings") of the Children of Israel, from their transgressions, for all of their sins,
and thus he is to do with the Tent of Appointment, which dwells with them in the midst of their tum'ot.
(Leviticus 16:15-16)

Further ritual acts occur - where he takes "some of the blood of the bull and some of the blood of the hairy-goat and is to place (it) on the horns of the slaughter-site, all around" (v. 18), etc.

When he has finished purging the Holy-Shrine and the Tent of Appointment and the slaughter-site,
he is to bring-near the live hairy (goat),
Aharon is to lean his two hands on the head of the live hairy (goat)
and is to confess over it
all the iniquities of the Children of Israel, all their transgressions, for all of their sins;
he is place them upon the head of the hairy (goat)
and is to send it free by the hand of a man for the occasion, into the wilderness.
The hairy (goat) is to bear upon itself all their iniquities, to a land cut off;
he is to send-free the hairy (goat) in the wilderness.
(Leviticus 16:20-22)

Further parts of the ritual ensue. The entire ritual consists of two basic things: riddance and purification. The riddance ritual was not exclusive to Israel, but took different forms in other peoples. It usually involved singling out individuals for punishment, to purge the community of a sin, a plauge, disease or other things - and the guilt of such things would by symbolically placed on the individual (whether human or animal).

The English term "scape-goat" comes from a suggested etymology of the name Azazel: "a goat that escapes", and it's usage in English translations of the Bible. Most modern scholars have come to the conclusion that Azazel was exactly what it appears to be: a wilderness demon. How you interpret the "scape-goat" ceremony (was it an offering?) is up to you, I suppose. Modern Hebrew has the phrase lekh la-azazel, which is the same thing as saying "go to hell" in English, basically - but modern usage cannot dictate how it was used anciently. It is interesting how it is used, however.

So I guess the question is: was Jesus a scape-goat to bear the sins of the community? Or was he the Passover Lamb to save people from the Angel of Death? I guess it depends on who you ask.

Originally Posted by theflipflop

The Torah forbids any kind of human sacrifice. The word in Yiddish for the concept of Jesus being a human sacrifice is "shtuss."

The Torah (the Five Books of Moses) may forbid it, but it certainly happened (or why else forbid it?). The tale of Jephthah's daughter shows how efficacious such a thing could be to ensure victory; it's a shame that God didn't stay Jephthah's hand at the last moment, as with Abraham - he seemed to approve of Jephthath's actions. But of course, you should know that Jewish tradition suggests that the original story of Abraham and Isaac culminated in Abraham actually sacrificing his son. I'd be interested in your thoughts on that particular Jewish exegesis, or whether you're familiar with it at all. Various details in the text gave rise to such musings. Interestingly, modern source criticism has suggested the possibility that this particular Jewish view is actually correct, and that a later editor could not compass such a thing, and included the part about the ram.

[Meester-Chung]

actually early Israelite polytheistic religion allowed human sacrifice. human sacrifice was outlawed after the babylonian exile.

[theflipflop]

Originally Posted by whoppers

you should know that Jewish tradition suggests that the original story of Abraham and Isaac culminated in Abraham actually sacrificing his son. I'd be interested in your thoughts on that particular Jewish exegesis, or whether you're familiar with it at all.

I must admit that is the first time in my life I ever heard of the concept. I obviously don't believe that's the way the events occurred, but I wonder where the idea comes from? Are there Jewish written sources that suggest as much?

actually early Israelite polytheistic religion allowed human sacrifice. human sacrifice was outlawed after the babylonian exile.

This is also not something that is not supported by any Jewish sources I'm aware of.

I am aware of isolated events of cannibalism with the Jewish people (for instance during the Babylonian seige on Jerusalem that culminated in the destruction of the first Beis Hamigdosh), but these were not religiously driven events. These were examples of cruel people at war surrounding and starving the Jews until they reached their breaking point.

[theflipflop]

Originally Posted by Meester-Chung

actually early Israelite polytheistic religion allowed human sacrifice. human sacrifice was outlawed after the babylonian exile.

And while we're at it, your statement "early Israelite polytheistic religion" is a strange statement. Can you explain further? The whole nature of being a Jew always was and still is monotheism. That's why we find Chrstianity so repulsive - the whole trinity thing smacks of polytheism to the Jew.

[Meester-Chung]

Monotheism did not appear until circa 600 B.C.E the book "A history of God" BY Karen Armstrong and the documentary of the same name which gives more information on how the Caananites the ancestors of the "Israelites" became monotheistic

more books listed under "ancient israelite religion" can be found here

[whoppers]

Originally Posted by theflipflop

I must admit that is the first time in my life I ever heard of the concept. I obviously don't believe that's the way the events occurred, but I wonder where the idea comes from? Are there Jewish written sources that suggest as much?

There is the question: "Why do people place ashes on their heads on the occasion of a public fast?"

The Mishnah speaks of the practice of throwing ashes on ones' head (Ta'anit 2:1) - the answer being give that it is a reminder of the sacrifice of Isaac and his ashes, his sacrifice being viewed as a stored-up merit and atonement for Israel (Ta'anit 16a). The Tosafot tells of how Abraham went through with the sacrifice, as well. Isaac ben Reuben Barceloni wrote a penitential prayer mentioning these 'ashes of Isaac', and Rabbi Ephraim ben Jacob of Bonn wrote a similar prayer.

A book on the subject by Shalom Spiegel called The Last Trial deals with this tradition.

So, yes, Jewish tradition does have this. Other traditions have Abraham sorry that he was not allowed to go through with it, and even others have stories of how Isaac fell dead from fright and was raised from the dead, while even others talk about Abraham's successful sacrifice - only to see him raised from the dead. In any event - the traditions mentioned in the beginning of this post result in no resurrection, and his ashes form the asnwer to the question posed above and the Haggadah used to answer it.