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Old 04-10-2012, 09:54 AM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
12,899 posts, read 18,442,586 times
Reputation: 13734

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hueffenhardt View Post
But, while we are on the topic of the Word of Wisdom, I thought I'd share a little about its possible origins.

Most Mormons have heard a familiar story about Emma, Joseph Smith's wife, being sick of cleaning up tobacco spit in the School of the Prophets. Below is a condensed version of the story from an LDS Sunday School lesson for children:



I don't dispute the story, but I did find this bit of history also informative. The following is from the Tanner's book, "Changing World":
There was serious reason to NOT do a "word of wisdom" type "commandment" back in those days. Without a reliable source of clean water in 19th century America, the best way to know your drink was safe (unless you boiled your own water, of course) was if it was piping hot or alcoholic.

When I was touring the Amazon, we lived on bottled water, beer and soda for that very reason.
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Old 04-10-2012, 10:50 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,260 posts, read 20,859,174 times
Reputation: 9943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Hmmmm. So it really just boils down to a "club requirement" set in place by church leaders with political motivations rather than an actual moral "commandment from god" as it is otherwise presented to modern day rank-and-file members?
I think it's actually somewhere in between. I think calling it a "club requirement" is an intentional put-down, but it clearly wasn't given as a "commandment from God." The Church leadership probably saw strict adherance to it as a good thing, and felt that it would set the membership of the Church apart from everyone else (which it clearly has), but I don't think it really goes any further than that.

Quote:
...And since it is a requirement for leadership positions, it ends up being just another tool to test the loyalty of members for prospective management and leadership postions in the church (i.e. the current power structure maintaining itself by choosing only people of like mind and opinion.)
Well, obviously any church would want its leaders to be comprised of men and women who are the best examples of what it exemplifies. It's probably one way in which the real commitment of Church members can be determined. Unfortunately, I think that many members of the Church today equate living the Word of Wisdom as being an indication of "righteous living," while ignoring other things that are less easily measured.

Quote:
I always thought it was more like the Jewish Kosher laws, interpreted directly from "ancient texts" as the "word of god". Gotta love bureaucracy.
Okay, Chango. I don't expect you to agree with the law, but you don't have to see every point of Mormonism from an extremist perspective. Nobody ever claimed it came from an ancient text, but we do believe it came by revelation, and it is a fact that practicing Mormons have a longer life expectancy than the general population. And take tobacco. You said in your OP that you thought that not using tobacco was a good idea. If you'd been alive in 1838, you'd have thought Joseph Smith was nuts for saying its harmful to the body. Heck, if you'd been an adult in 1938, you would have probably thought the same thing. Nowadays, there are still a lot of smokers, but there is overwhelming evidence that smoking is very harmful to the human body.
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Old 04-10-2012, 10:51 AM
 
Location: New England
914 posts, read 1,535,911 times
Reputation: 925
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
So as a last ditch effort to save my failing marriage, I agreed to go sit with my wife in church every Sunday. Yes, I know it's like playing with happy, smiling rattlesnakes, but what can a gentile do?

Anyway, I was reading over some LDS doctrine and happened across the "word of wisdom"; the part that says mormons can't drink or smoke anything fun.

Doctrine and Covenants 89*

So read over this and tell me if I'm I crazy, but it doesn't say THOU SHALL NOT DRINK ALCOHOL at all!

Here's how it starts (from the same link)

"1 A Word of Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—
2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—"

I read this and hear: "Hey, this stuff isn't mandatory m'kay? but it is a good idea so listen up and at least think about it, so yea... wanna go down to the pub after church?"

Moving along...

So no strong drinks, no hot drinks, no tobacco (I'm OK with that one), can only drink wine you made yourself (Utah is still mad at California I guess)... but what about this?

"16 All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—
17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain."

Hmm... what is a "mild drink" made of grain?

Oh Yea, I remember !!!



So bottoms up Mormons everywhere, your own prophet and founder says it's OK! Just don't get toasted.

Of course it begs the question of why it isn't OK today when JS clearly said it's merely a "suggestion" in the first place and even goes so far as to say beer itself is actually good for mankind! Perhaps one of our resident LDS scholars could chime in (*ahem* that's your queue, Katz ).

Yeah but they still can't drink coffee. Horrible.
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Old 04-10-2012, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,260 posts, read 20,859,174 times
Reputation: 9943
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuteishungry View Post
Yeah but they still can't drink coffee. Horrible.
OMG! I hate coffee! I know that sounds crazy to most people, but seriously, you've got to admit it's an aquired taste. Think back to your very first cup. How much sugar and cream did you need to add before you could manage to choke it down? I bet there are very few people who fell in love with coffee the first time they ever tasted it.
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Old 04-10-2012, 10:54 AM
 
Location: New England
914 posts, read 1,535,911 times
Reputation: 925
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
OMG! I hate coffee! I know that sounds crazy to most people, but seriously, you've got to admit it's an aquired taste. Think back to your very first cup. How much sugar and cream did you need to add before you could manage to choke it down? I bet there are very few people who fell in love with coffee the first time they ever tasted it.

Aww, I just had my fourth cup.
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Old 04-10-2012, 10:58 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,260 posts, read 20,859,174 times
Reputation: 9943
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuteishungry View Post
Aww, I just had my fourth cup.
Well, have another one on me! But seriously, didn't the taste have to grow on you?
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Old 04-10-2012, 11:01 AM
 
2,447 posts, read 2,573,431 times
Reputation: 2202
Of course they can, the only thing that has stopped them is what's in their head.
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Old 04-12-2012, 01:16 PM
 
Location: New England
914 posts, read 1,535,911 times
Reputation: 925
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Well, have another one on me! But seriously, didn't the taste have to grow on you?

No way. Once it hits your lips. It's better than love at first sight, haha. However, I feel that way about alcohol.
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Old 04-13-2012, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Ohio
17,998 posts, read 13,233,625 times
Reputation: 13776
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Good news, Mormons CAN drink alcohol !!!!
That brings back a flood of memories.

I was on duty one night and walking out of the division forward headquarters building and here comes a taxi rolling up to the taxi stand with the passenger door open and a drunk troop puking out the door as it drove up.

It was Stalhut. He was a Mormon. Don't get me wrong, I liked Stalhut, he was a good troop, but he damn sure couldn't handle his liquor. I laughed my ass off and got my driver to take him back to the barracks.

Then another time we were giving Senator Orrin Hatch (Utah) a tour of some nuclear weapons facilities, and one of my troops Johnston (a Mormon) is sitting at a table playing Uchre, drinking coffee and eating a Mars bar and they were talking about getting drunk at some dance club in Homburg (-- not Hamburg).

I was thinking what's wrong with this picture (a Mormon playing cards, drinking caffeine, eating chocolate talking about drinking)?

I said, "Yo, Johnston, Hatch's helicopter is gonna be on the ground in about 2 minutes so you might want to secure that crap." Everyone started laughing. I started laughing. Hatch walks in, and I'm still laughing. We're making the introductions and I'm still giggling and so is everyone else, Hatch is like, "Private joke?" "Yes sir, very much so." I was pissed at Johnston for a long because of that. Hatch must have thought we were all insane or something.

Mormonizing...

Mircea
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Old 09-17-2012, 06:03 PM
 
3 posts, read 5,883 times
Reputation: 10
5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.
6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.


This is the part that your missing, to be taken for sacrament and I believe highlighting pure would mean that is un-fermented. But still, it is not a commandment.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
So as a last ditch effort to save my failing marriage, I agreed to go sit with my wife in church every Sunday. Yes, I know it's like playing with happy, smiling rattlesnakes, but what can a gentile do?

Anyway, I was reading over some LDS doctrine and happened across the "word of wisdom"; the part that says mormons can't drink or smoke anything fun.

Doctrine and Covenants 89*

So read over this and tell me if I'm I crazy, but it doesn't say THOU SHALL NOT DRINK ALCOHOL at all!

Here's how it starts (from the same link)

"1 A Word of Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—
2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—"

I read this and hear: "Hey, this stuff isn't mandatory m'kay? but it is a good idea so listen up and at least think about it, so yea... wanna go down to the pub after church?"

Moving along...

So no strong drinks, no hot drinks, no tobacco (I'm OK with that one), can only drink wine you made yourself (Utah is still mad at California I guess)... but what about this?

"16 All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—
17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain."

Hmm... what is a "mild drink" made of grain?

Oh Yea, I remember !!!



So bottoms up Mormons everywhere, your own prophet and founder says it's OK! Just don't get toasted.

Of course it begs the question of why it isn't OK today when JS clearly said it's merely a "suggestion" in the first place and even goes so far as to say beer itself is actually good for mankind! Perhaps one of our resident LDS scholars could chime in (*ahem* that's your queue, Katz ).
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