Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
I would like to know people's reasons why they believe the story of Joseph, Jacob's son, in Egypt was just fabricated.
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Then might I suggest that you obtain a copy of the BHS (
Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia) and read it, so that you can be up to speed with the rest of us.Since you have never read the Old Testament texts, you have no basis to constantly complain that others
who have read it point out that the texts have been fabricated. What do each of these passages say?
Genesis 37:18 Now Joseph’s brothers saw him from a distance, and before he reached them, they plotted to kill him. [37:19]...37:20 Come now, let’s kill him, throw him into one of the cisterns, and then say that a wild animal ate him...[]
It says Joseph's brothers plotted to kill him.
Genesis 37:21 When Reuben heard this, he rescued Joseph from their hands, saying, “Let’s not take his life!†37:22 Reuben continued, “Don’t shed blood! Throw him into this cistern that is here in the wilderness, but don’t lay a hand on him.†(Reuben said this so he could rescue Joseph from them and take him back to his father.)
The eldest son, Reuben, intervened to save the life of Joseph.
Genesis 37:25 When they sat down to eat their food, they looked up and saw a caravan of Ishmaelites coming from Gilead....[]
They observed a caravan of Ishmaelites.
Genesis 37:26 Then Judah said to his brothers, “What profit is there if we kill our brother and cover up his blood? 37:27 Come, let’s sell him to the Ishmaelites, but let’s not lay a hand on him, for after all, he is our brother, our own flesh.†His brothers agreed.
You don't see a problem there?
Reuben already intervened on behalf of Joseph, yet we see Judah now intervening on Joseph's behalf, albeit a day late and a dollar short (
since Reuben already did).
Most of those two verses were written by the 'J' the Yahwist who is very fond of Judah and in his eyes, Judah can do no wrong.
Contrast that with the first several verses written by 'E' the Elohist who is more interested in the truth than in fabricating the text to support the Clan of Judah as the hereditary and permanent rulers of the Nation of Hebrews/Israel.
Genesis 37:28 So when the Midianite merchants passed by, Joseph’s brothers pulled him out of the cistern and sold him to the Ishmaelites for twenty pieces of silver. The Ishmaelites then took Joseph to Egypt.
You don't see a problem with that?
What Midianite merchants?
Genesis 37:29 Later Reuben returned to the cistern to find that Joseph was not in it! He tore his clothes, returned to his brothers, and said, “The boy isn’t there! And I, where can I go?†37:31 So they took Joseph’s tunic, killed a young goat, and dipped the tunic in the blood.
He did what? Why would Reuben return to the cistern? Of course Joseph isn't there. He just sold Joseph to the Ishmaelites (or was it the Midianites?).
So how stupid is Reuben?
Genesis 37:36 Now in Egypt the Midianites sold Joseph to Potiphar, one of Pharaoh’s officials, the captain of the guard.
The Midianites?
Earlier it says they sold Joseph to the Ishmaelites? How stupid is Yahweh that he cannot get a simple story like this straight?
Even more embarrassing is the fact that in the BHS, which is the Masoretic Text based on
Codex Leningradis which is the oldest existing most complete version of the Old Testament works says...
....M
edianites.
And the Medianites are a different people than the Midianites and both of them are different still from the Ishmaelites.
Perhaps now's the time for someone to chime in and say, "
The writers of the Bible were endowed by the Holy Spirit and guided by the Hand of God."
God can't even figure out which group of people were romping through the steppes in a caravan.
If you were a defendant in a criminal case, and you took the stand and told the jury you were innocent and that you have a solid alibi, namely the Midianites.....no, wait, you were with the Ishmaleites....uh, strike that, you were actually hanging with the Medianites, what should a jury believe?No rational, reasonable and intelligent person is going to buy your story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
I've been told over and over that the flood story of Noah's day was fiction ...
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Of course it is fiction.
But the really sad thing is that there is a teeny-tiny kernel of truth in there: there was catastrophic global event, but it was not a flood (your "bible" doesn't even have the audacity to call it a "flood" -- it correctly calls it a "deluge" and you can't even get that right), and it was not caused by any god(s). It was tsunami caused by an asteroid impact. It destroyed the western ice sheet in Antarctica and triggered an abrupt end to the Ice Age starting the present Inter-Glacial Period.
And then you have the gall to wonder why people like me despise x-tians (especially the wannabes). You cause tremendous harm by interfering with the truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
...and so was wondering if posters here believe the Joseph story rising to power in Egypt in a time of great famine, prior to Israel being in Egypt 400+ years was just made up.
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It is impossible for Israel to have been in Egypt for 400+ years.
Ugarit was totally annihilated (genocided if you will) in 1190 BCE. There is no possible way the Hebrews can learn Ugarit, and then shift to a dialect of Ugarit and then shift to the Hebrew language if the Ugarits are all dead.
That is only possible if the Hebrews had always lived in Canaan.
In addition to language, we know for a fact that the Hebrews took Ugaritic myths and copied them word for word, or changed a word here or there. That means the Hebrews had to have access to Ugaritic texts and be able to speak and read the Ugaritic dialect.
It is a fact that Ugartic texts have been used to both emend and amend the Hebrew texts. Sorry, but it is a fact that the Hebrews copied texts from the Ugarits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
I am curious if any of you believe the Biblical Joseph, the son of Jacob (AKA Israel) was in Egypt?
Is lack of evidence proof he never was in Egypt and that the writers of the Bible just made up the story of Joseph being a leader in Egypt?
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There might have been a Joseph in Egypt. How did he get there? Well, we don't know and the biblical texts aren't clear on the matter. In fact they cloud and muddle the issue.
Assuming that he was there, that doesn't prove the Hebrews were there. Again, you might want to read a real bible, like the BHS so you can see the word "
sojourn."
A sojourn is a brief stay, not an emigration. It is possible some clans/tribes remained in Egypt. Land was everything in the Ancient World. If you did not have land, then you were nothing, no wait, you were lower than nothing. Jacob's death was the day that Reuben, Simeon and Levi feared more than anything else, because when Jacob dies, they have nothing -- they certainly don't have any land. They are living on their father's land by his grace and when he dies, that's it. All they have is the shirts on their backs, so of course given the opportunity, they would have chosen to remain in Egypt, since having land in Egypt would be better than having no land at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
The Quran was written around 610 some A.D. It is not the "proof" I was looking for.
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So what is the proof you are looking for, a text of the 'J" Document or a text of the 'E' Document?
Alright, let's do this, what about the
Pericope of the Adulteress?
That story does not appear in any manuscripts prior to 1100 A.D.
E13 has it at John 7:53-8:11, but rather embarrassingly, Fragment 225 inserts it after John 7:36; E1 inserts it after John 21:25; Fragment 115 puts after John 8:12; E13 also inserts it at Luke 21:38; and finally, Fragment 1333 inserts it after Luke 24:53.
If you are reading scholarly journals or books and see the phrase "floating text" they are most likely talking about the
Pericope. You know the
Pericope,
"Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone." Yeah, that one. The evidence strongly suggests it was made up and added to the texts to negate criticism of the popes, who had scandalous sexual, homosexual and bisexual affairs, raped women and children and did other horrible things (like commit murder.
Reasoning...
Mircea
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