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Jesus is a Jew and He told us and tells us what the Scriptures mean.
The apostle Paul who is the apostle of the nations was a Jew and he taught us what the Scriptures mean and laid down for us the means of understanding them.
Again, the Jews today and in Jesus' day do not agree amongst themselves what the Scriptures mean.
Neither Jesus nor Paul really do a good job of explaining much of the old testiment, (or Hebrew bible if you will.)
Jesus is a Jew and He told us and tells us what the Scriptures mean.
The apostle Paul who is the apostle of the nations was a Jew and he taught us what the Scriptures mean and laid down for us the means of understanding them.
Again, the Jews today and in Jesus' day do not agree amongst themselves what the Scriptures mean.
Here's what you don't understand, Eusebius. There never has been a single Jew who was the authority over what was meant in the Torah. Perhaps an arguement could be made for Moses, but that's it.
So now suddenly there's this Yid who comes along (Jesus), and his interpretations are flawless and all others irrelevant? How in the world could anybody come to that conclusion?
When it comes to the understanding what the Torah means, we Jews have the Talmud, which represents hundreds of years of discussions among the greatest Torah scholars who ever lived, duking it out over meanings. Then we have hundreds of years of the Rishonim duking it out over what the Talmud means. Then the Achronim argue on the meanings of the Rishonim. Then we have more modern day Talmud Chachim who learn day and night what it all means, and they transmit it to their talmidim (like myself) who will spend a lifetime just to glean the surface of the meanings.
And yet you claim this one single Yid, Jesus, knew what it all meant and set the standard for all time to come with his singular interpretations. Wow. unbelievable.
05-02-2012, 01:57 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
This is a much better translation:
"Created by the Elohim were the heavens and the earth. Yet the earth
became a chaos and vacant, and darkness was on the surface of the
submerged chaos. Yet the spirit of the Elohim is vibrating over the surface
of the water. (Genesis 1:1-2)
Why you could call it a "non possible translation" is beyond me. Of course it is a translation, the Concordant Literal Old Testament translation. The verse does not state God created the heavens and earth out of nothing. I suggest you move on.
First, I already know that Gen.1:1-3 does not state that the heavens and the earth were created out of nothing - That is what I stated in the OP - DUH!!!
Second, I suggest you throw the CLOT out the window then.
Quote:
"The first occurrence of this word is a notable example of its force. Gen.1:2
should read, `And the earth became...," not was. From this we know that
it was not "waste and void" but became so as the effect of some
interference. This is confirmed by Isa.45:18. Our point is that "becomes"
registers the effect or result of previous action and introduces no new
element.
After Genesis 1:1,2 God began restoring the earth to make it habitable again.
The above has already been demolished - it is absolutely WRONG, BUNK, and BS. Who the hell is 'our' in the above 'our point is...' you can throw them out the window to. For someone who accussed whoppers of derailing the thread it is ironic that you come here with nothing other than statements that have no validity and it is clear you are unable and/or unwilling to give any grammatical reasons why you hold to your position - no need to waste my time arguing with a obscrurantus bull****us.
Since I do leave the slimmest possiblity that you can change (probably not but at least others will have the info) I will post an article on this BS - follow the link http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBi...he-gap-theory/
Here's what you don't understand, Eusebius. There never has been a single Jew who was the authority over what was meant in the Torah. Perhaps an arguement could be made for Moses, but that's it.
So now suddenly there's this Yid who comes along (Jesus), and his interpretations are flawless and all others irrelevant? How in the world could anybody come to that conclusion?
When it comes to the understanding what the Torah means, we Jews have the Talmud, which represents hundreds of years of discussions among the greatest Torah scholars who ever lived, duking it out over meanings. Then we have hundreds of years of the Rishonim duking it out over what the Talmud means. Then the Achronim argue on the meanings of the Rishonim. Then we have more modern day Talmud Chachim who learn day and night what it all means, and they transmit it to their talmidim (like myself) who will spend a lifetime just to glean the surface of the meanings.
And yet you claim this one single Yid, Jesus, knew what it all meant and set the standard for all time to come with his singular interpretations. Wow. unbelievable.
Which proves my point. While you guys are duking it out over what the Bible means you can't agree on what it means.
Case in point: Jews for Jesus. Very knowledgeable group of Jews. Some Jews accept Jesus as Messiah and some don't. All eventually will. It just comes to when.
Rabbis don't agree amongst themselves.
Jesus was the truth. He never spoke a lie. He knew the Scriptures inside out. He never once used the word "I think it is like this". or "maybe" or "hopefully I'm right" or "I guess" or "it could be."
Here's what you don't understand, Eusebius. There never has been a single Jew who was the authority over what was meant in the Torah. Perhaps an arguement could be made for Moses, but that's it.
So now suddenly there's this Yid who comes along (Jesus), and his interpretations are flawless and all others irrelevant? How in the world could anybody come to that conclusion?
When it comes to the understanding what the Torah means, we Jews have the Talmud, which represents hundreds of years of discussions among the greatest Torah scholars who ever lived, duking it out over meanings. Then we have hundreds of years of the Rishonim duking it out over what the Talmud means. Then the Achronim argue on the meanings of the Rishonim. Then we have more modern day Talmud Chachim who learn day and night what it all means, and they transmit it to their talmidim (like myself) who will spend a lifetime just to glean the surface of the meanings.
And yet you claim this one single Yid, Jesus, knew what it all meant and set the standard for all time to come with his singular interpretations. Wow. unbelievable.
Not only that, if Jesus actually knew what the Torrah meant, he didn't bother to write any of his thoughts down so anyone could read them...
nor did he have someone else write down his thoughts while he was still alive.
Instead, we have people who claimed to have met some people who might have known Jesus write down what they could remember of what Jesus might have said.
Here we go again with Whoppers derailing.
Whoppers, this thread is not about if there are two creation accounts by P & J. That there are two creation accounts attributed to two different authors has been debunked many years ago.
This thread is about Creation being out of nothing. It is not about your Flood Narrative ideas etc. as interesting as they may be.
Eusebius - this thread is about the exact OPPOSITE of your statement. Pay attention. And stop giving people your advice on what you feel is a good translation - you don't read Biblical Hebrew, so you have absolutely NO way of making such a judgment.
The very fact that you cannot comprehend why J and P are important for this entire issue is yet another reason why almost every single person in this thread (and in others) has been disagreeing with you and pointing out how uninformed you are. Either learn something from what is being discussed, or please be quiet. Invoking what Jesus knew and did not know adds absolutely nothing to the discussion except the same old apologetic line "well, Jesus believed it - it must be true"...
While you guys are duking it out over what the Bible means you can't agree on what it means.
This is quitessentianlly what it means to be a Jew. This is our tradition. One uneducated poster here at C/D once said to me: "once you finish your learning, get back with me and let me know the answer." Ha! The Jew never stops learning. When you stop learning and claim to know something uncontrivertibly, you cease to be relevant in the discussion any further.
Quote:
Case in point: Jews for Jesus. Very knowledgeable group of Jews. Some Jews accept Jesus as Messiah and some don't. All eventually will. It just comes to when.
It's terribly sad that anyone still believes these "Jews for Jesus" are Jews. But as many other threads will attest to here, "Jews for Jesus" is just a fancy way of saying "Chrstian." There is not one Jew on earth who believes in Jesus. And if a Jew suddenly decides they do believe in Jesus, they cease being Jewish and are now considered an apostate.
Quote:
He never once used the word "I think it is like this". or "maybe" or "hopefully I'm right" or "I guess" or "it could be."
Sounds narcissistic and a bit meglomaniacle to me. No proper Jew would ever have the chutzpah to say they were the final word on any Jewish idea.
Quote:
if Jesus actually knew what the Torrah meant, he didn't bother to write any of his thoughts down so anyone could read them...
nor did he have someone else write down his thoughts while he was still alive.
Instead, we have people who claimed to have met some people who might have known Jesus write down what they could remember of what Jesus might have said.
Good point, Boxcar Overkill. And to think there's a religion a billion strong in the world built on this.
First, I already know that Gen.1:1-3 does not state that the heavens and the earth were created out of nothing - That is what I stated in the OP - DUH!!!
Second, I suggest you throw the CLOT out the window then.
No. You explain why "became" is improper in its contextual setting.
Quote:
The above has already been demolished - it is absolutely WRONG, BUNK, and BS.
A hit dog barks. Certainly not demolished by you.
Quote:
Who the hell is 'our' in the above 'our point is...' you can throw them out the window to.
The "our" is comprised of those in the know.
Quote:
For someone who accussed whoppers of derailing the thread it is ironic that you come here with nothing other than statements that have no validity and it is clear you are unable and/or unwilling to give any grammatical reasons why you hold to your position - no need to waste my time arguing with a obscrurantus bull****us.
I have not derailed any thread. The thread is about if God created the earth out of nothing.
Quote:
Since I do leave the slimmest possiblity that you can change (probably not but at least others will have the info) I will post an article an this BS - follow the link http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBi...he-gap-theory/
MOVING ON!
I do leave the slimmest possibility you can change.
Isa_45:18 For thus says Yahweh, Creator of the heavens; He is the Elohim,
and Former of the earth, and its Maker, and He, He established it. He did
not create it a chaos. He formed it to be indwelt. "I am Yahweh, and there
is none else."
Yahweh did not create the earth a chaos but it BECAME a chaos:
Isa_45:18 For thus says Yahweh, Creator of the heavens; He is the Elohim,
and Former of the earth, and its Maker, and He, He established it. He did
not create it a chaos. He formed it to be indwelt. "I am Yahweh, and
there is none else."
So not only did God NOT create the earth out of nothing, He did not create it a chaos.
05-02-2012, 02:21 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
No. You explain why "became" is improper in its contextual setting.
A hit dog barks. Certainly not demolished by you.
The "our" is comprised of those in the know.
I have not derailed any thread. The thread is about if God created the earth out of nothing.
I do leave the slimmest possibility you can change.
Isa_45:18 For thus says Yahweh, Creator of the heavens; He is the Elohim,
and Former of the earth, and its Maker, and He, He established it. He did
not create it a chaos. He formed it to be indwelt. "I am Yahweh, and there
is none else."
Yahweh did not create the earth a chaos but it BECAME a chaos:
Isa_45:18 For thus says Yahweh, Creator of the heavens; He is the Elohim,
and Former of the earth, and its Maker, and He, He established it. He did not create it a chaos. He formed it to be indwelt. "I am Yahweh, and
there is none else."
So not only did God NOT create the earth out of nothing, He did not create it a chaos.
MOVED ON! - all has been answered in the OP and links.
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