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By definition, faith-based beliefs are NOT based on empirical evidence and factual observation. If it were, a lot of it would have to be revised, as atheists are more than aware.
Note that a very high percentage (>> 95% or higher...) of modern educated scientists, engineers and even those in the public who take a logical approach to the unfolding universe and planetary biology & geology, are atheists.
Sadly, the majority of Christians and Muslims are not well-educated nor logical (a quick read of the many posts on C-D in the R&P sub-forum will confirm this. Much of their posted "proofs" are based loosely on the ambiguous claims of books that were generated in the illogical Dark Ages, and are rife with illogical mythology and wild claims, the result of truly uneducated observation and fear. Fact.)
By definition, faith-based beliefs are NOT based on empirical evidence and factual observation. If it were, a lot of it would have to be revised, as atheists are more than aware.
Note that a very high percentage (>> 95% or higher...) of modern educated scientists, engineers and even those in the public who take a logical approach to the unfolding universe and planetary biology & geology, are atheists.
Sadly, the majority of Christians and Muslims are not well-educated nor logical (a quick read of the many posts on C-D in the R&P sub-forum will confirm this. Much of their posted "proofs" are based loosely on the ambiguous claims of books that were generated in the illogical Dark Ages, and are rife with illogical mythology and wild claims, the result of truly uneducated observation and fear. Fact.)
Have a good night! Off to bed.
So you've determined that of the more than 4 billion Christians & Muslims in the world, a majority of them are neither well educated nor logical, based simply on what you've read on City Data?
Is faith based on little or no evidence reasonable?
I will give my own reply to this shortly.
Belief in something on a little evidence is very reasonable. Belief in the absence of any evidence what so ever is not. Belief in deities is not based on any type of evidence.
So you've determined that of the more than 4 billion Christians & Muslims in the world, a majority of them are neither well educated nor logical, based simply on what you've read on City Data?
That seems highly illogical, no?
The power of fear, indoctrination and self delusion is a powerful thing.
So you've determined that of the more than 4 billion Christians & Muslims in the world, a majority of them are neither well educated nor logical, based simply on what you've read on City Data?
That seems highly illogical, no?
No, I've "determined" this based entirely on the 45 year long sentient part of my adult life, i.e.: from about 16 - 17 yrs of age, prior to which I was a young head-full-of-mush child, easily led astray by fear-manipulated Sunday School lessons and absurd comic books showing lions laying with lambs, and "two of each kind" (but always those giraffes and elephants, lions and lambs, but NOT the other perhaps 30 - 100 million species Noah would have to have brought on board, the being "No Evolvin' allowed, EVER!" rules in effect. OMG#1).
(You do agree that literally hundreds of millions of people actually believe this one, right? Personally, I'd be ashamed to be part of a group that closed-minded... But then, I'm part of that "other" species, capable of opening my mind to the obvious and logical..)
When I started my own extensive, wide-ranging and thorough life's education, that part in which I was actually interested and enthusiastic and open to anything, I began to examine the entire faith-based belief paradigm, and it did not fare too well.
This is hardly unique to me, usedtobe.... In fact, I have reasonably concluded that there are, in regards to religion and spiritual beliefs, two kinds, or perhaps even "sub-species"..) of people on this planet; those whose eyes are open, or those who refuse to do that.
This is obvious in the quite amazing (well, once upon a time, it was amazing; now it's just predictable and annoying...) lack of interest, or outright refusal, of almost every Christian I've EVER talked to here or more often in my past, in the real-face to face world. However, out there, where they can't hide behind some on-line anonymity, they are far more reticent in arguing and/or defending their blatant lack of intellectual honesty.
This life-long personal exploration has only been more firmly focused and confirmed by my 3 yrs here, in the production of "quite a few" () posts and threads on this general subject. That anonymity has certainly brought out the true religion in the posting (and defensive but ever-evasive) Christians, and to a lesser extent, the Islamic perspective, which of late has been contaminated by the fanatical radical segment of that religious cohort.
The "majority rules in beliefs" you seem to be defending really does not cut it with... well.... anyone who has a rational and functioning mind. Is the "majority rules" position your's on the subject, usedtobe...? Seems that's what you are saying.
Hmmm... Your "majority", as you know, absolutely "knew" for a fact that the earth was flat... In fact a small but amazing percentage of those millions of people you mention still do! Oh My GOD#2! Or Noah's Ark? Literally true?? You betcha! And the resulting happy group of co-existing dinosaurs with man as their keepers? A young earth,≈ 6035 yrs old, with the Grand Canyon having been formed in just a few minutes? All those dated sedimentary layers in the visible geological column, all laid down during one Great Fludd? (Despite the inclusion of now-long extinct flora and fauna captured in them. Or all the latest confirmed geological and artifact-dating methods, all of them bogus, biased or untrustable? Even when they absolutely date items of known age or origin?
All of it, just pure unadulterated bunk? OMG #3. And Mohammed, the illiterate pedophile he admitted to being, was in fact, a direct messenger of God's? But off with my head if I don't buy into abject silliness? Hmmmm.
Oh well, huh? Just ignore and deny, and "All together now... let's rote-chant in majority unison! There! Now you've got it!"
Now, if all those innocent and naive folks out there, the ones you seem to suggest "prove" out a spiritual option, had been given an opportunity for completely open and always under revision (to reflect our expanding knowledge of ... everything... from better agriculture to personal health care, to social networking to (OMG#4!!) the information that a logical step-wise question and answer process (OMG #5: The Scientific Method...)
But do we see the Taliban allowing the teaching of, say, modern bioscience? They don't even want females to have ANY education. Stoned in the streets is A-OK though, according to that majority of multi-millions! All of them armed with rocks, swords or AK-47s [or if they're real lucky, an AK-74...]. Or... coming soon to a world-wide theatre near us all: a nice dirty plutonium-enriched bomb. The assigned place for women is, well you know where, and it ain't "purty". As well, the general Islamic paradigm hardly encourages any teachings beyond memorization of the Qu'Ran. Agreed? I can prove this to you if you insist on denial.
Or OK... how about the Christian version of "education"? (Not even going into the Kansas et al, Boards of "Education", with their mind-numbingly dumb ideas on the mandatory inclusion of Intelligent Design into a science class curriculum. Hard to do, since ID ain't science, now is it? Anyone? Anyone?)
Hmmm.. I scanned the available "plans" on that amazing website, and yet... hmmm... I do not see any open-minded equal opportunities in their education paradigms. Nothing about, let's say, the alternate but very well documented and now proven theory-laws regarding Evolution or the Origins of The universe as now exposed by the Hubble Telescope. (Expanding, unfinished, coming from a single point of origin.) And so on. Quite illogical, eh? But... "the majority" tells (or..."yells"...) us so too! But Nope. Not there! They only allow the teaching of their version in those still inanely stupid Sunday School comix and lesson plans. (I recently saw one showing what looks like a Roman Centurion riding a tamed and haltered T-Rex. That sound rational to you? OMG #.... oh hell, let's just call it #∞!!!)
First, this one from a Sunday School coloring book (colors suggested but not mandatory, one assumes... ):
And yet... multi-millions of kids, a majority for sure, but also sooo easily frightened not unthinking beliefs that will no doubt accompany them well into their adult lives, and to their death beds, generated by the accompanying terror tales of godly retribution that also infiltrate their lessons, are mind-washed into actually believing that endless crud. Or do you also defend it as being subject to the "majority-rules" truth? (Lemmings , sheep and ant-columns come readily to mind here...)
Huge masses of uneducated people do, yup, accurately characterize the general population on this planet. We can hardly expect them to have the same opportunities for a good education that we enjoy (but also abuse here) in N. America. Just because you glowingly approve of that paradigm, does NOT make it right, now does it, usedtobe...?
Y'all come on back now, y'hear? I can hardly wait.
I love your passion and enthusiasm! I won't make an attempt to counter all of your points as you seem pretty comfortable with your beliefs. The only reason I would even attempt to do so would be that I enjoy and feel it is my duty as a Christian to spread the word of God. But when someone so clearly has their mind made up on the matter, well it's just a waste of time for all involved.
Don't misunderstand, I'm not passing any level of judgement whatsoever on you. You are a fellow human and you believe what you believe, and it is what it is.
This may be a surprise, but as recently as 10 years ago I felt the exact same way as you. I identified myself as an atheist and was very comfortable living my life with the belief that there was nothing beyond what I could see with my own eyes. I won't go into too many details as to what changed my mind, other than to say the birth of my 2 children had a lot to do with it.
One thing that I see from yourself and many others who share your belief is a level of anger or probably a better way to see it is "extreme determination" to make your point and to prove those who believe in a higher power wrong. May I ask why that is? I'm guessing that there is a lot of this going on in this forum (I don't spend much time in this forum), coming from both "sides", so to speak, so I don't mean to single you out. Just trying to understand it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman
No, I've "determined" this based entirely on the 45 year long sentient part of my adult life, i.e.: from about 16 - 17 yrs of age, prior to which I was a young head-full-of-mush child, easily led astray by fear-manipulated Sunday School lessons and absurd comic books showing lions laying with lambs, and "two of each kind" (but always those giraffes and elephants, lions and lambs, but NOT the other perhaps 30 - 100 million species Noah would have to have brought on board, the being "No Evolvin' allowed, EVER!" rules in effect. OMG#1).
(You do agree that literally hundreds of millions of people actually believe this one, right? Personally, I'd be ashamed to be part of a group that closed-minded... But then, I'm part of that "other" species, capable of opening my mind to the obvious and logical..)
When I started my own extensive, wide-ranging and thorough life's education, that part in which I was actually interested and enthusiastic and open to anything, I began to examine the entire faith-based belief paradigm, and it did not fare too well.
This is hardly unique to me, usedtobe.... In fact, I have reasonably concluded that there are, in regards to religion and spiritual beliefs, two kinds, or perhaps even "sub-species"..) of people on this planet; those whose eyes are open, or those who refuse to do that.
This is obvious in the quite amazing (well, once upon a time, it was amazing; now it's just predictable and annoying...) lack of interest, or outright refusal, of almost every Christian I've EVER talked to here or more often in my past, in the real-face to face world. However, out there, where they can't hide behind some on-line anonymity, they are far more reticent in arguing and/or defending their blatant lack of intellectual honesty.
This life-long personal exploration has only been more firmly focused and confirmed by my 3 yrs here, in the production of "quite a few" () posts and threads on this general subject. That anonymity has certainly brought out the true religion in the posting (and defensive but ever-evasive) Christians, and to a lesser extent, the Islamic perspective, which of late has been contaminated by the fanatical radical segment of that religious cohort.
The "majority rules in beliefs" you seem to be defending really does not cut it with... well.... anyone who has a rational and functioning mind. Is the "majority rules" position your's on the subject, usedtobe...? Seems that's what you are saying.
Hmmm... Your "majority", as you know, absolutely "knew" for a fact that the earth was flat... In fact a small but amazing percentage of those millions of people you mention still do! Oh My GOD#2! Or Noah's Ark? Literally true?? You betcha! And the resulting happy group of co-existing dinosaurs with man as their keepers? A young earth,≈ 6035 yrs old, with the Grand Canyon having been formed in just a few minutes? All those dated sedimentary layers in the visible geological column, all laid down during one Great Fludd? (Despite the inclusion of now-long extinct flora and fauna captured in them. Or all the latest confirmed geological and artifact-dating methods, all of them bogus, biased or untrustable? Even when they absolutely date items of known age or origin?
All of it, just pure unadulterated bunk? OMG #3. And Mohammed, the illiterate pedophile he admitted to being, was in fact, a direct messenger of God's? But off with my head if I don't buy into abject silliness? Hmmmm.
Oh well, huh? Just ignore and deny, and "All together now... let's rote-chant in majority unison! There! Now you've got it!"
Now, if all those innocent and naive folks out there, the ones you seem to suggest "prove" out a spiritual option, had been given an opportunity for completely open and always under revision (to reflect our expanding knowledge of ... everything... from better agriculture to personal health care, to social networking to (OMG#4!!) the information that a logical step-wise question and answer process (OMG #5: The Scientific Method...)
But do we see the Taliban allowing the teaching of, say, modern bioscience? They don't even want females to have ANY education. Stoned in the streets is A-OK though, according to that majority of multi-millions! All of them armed with rocks, swords or AK-47s [or if they're real lucky, an AK-74...]. Or... coming soon to a world-wide theatre near us all: a nice dirty plutonium-enriched bomb. The assigned place for women is, well you know where, and it ain't "purty". As well, the general Islamic paradigm hardly encourages any teachings beyond memorization of the Qu'Ran. Agreed? I can prove this to you if you insist on denial.
Or OK... how about the Christian version of "education"? (Not even going into the Kansas et al, Boards of "Education", with their mind-numbingly dumb ideas on the mandatory inclusion of Intelligent Design into a science class curriculum. Hard to do, since ID ain't science, now is it? Anyone? Anyone?)
Hmmm.. I scanned the available "plans" on that amazing website, and yet... hmmm... I do not see any open-minded equal opportunities in their education paradigms. Nothing about, let's say, the alternate but very well documented and now proven theory-laws regarding Evolution or the Origins of The universe as now exposed by the Hubble Telescope. (Expanding, unfinished, coming from a single point of origin.) And so on. Quite illogical, eh? But... "the majority" tells (or..."yells"...) us so too! But Nope. Not there! They only allow the teaching of their version in those still inanely stupid Sunday School comix and lesson plans. (I recently saw one showing what looks like a Roman Centurion riding a tamed and haltered T-Rex. That sound rational to you? OMG #.... oh hell, let's just call it #∞!!!)
First, this one from a Sunday School coloring book (colors suggested but not mandatory, one assumes... ):
And yet... multi-millions of kids, a majority for sure, but also sooo easily frightened not unthinking beliefs that will no doubt accompany them well into their adult lives, and to their death beds, generated by the accompanying terror tales of godly retribution that also infiltrate their lessons, are mind-washed into actually believing that endless crud. Or do you also defend it as being subject to the "majority-rules" truth? (Lemmings , sheep and ant-columns come readily to mind here...)
Huge masses of uneducated people do, yup, accurately characterize the general population on this planet. We can hardly expect them to have the same opportunities for a good education that we enjoy (but also abuse here) in N. America. Just because you glowingly approve of that paradigm, does NOT make it right, now does it, usedtobe...?
Y'all come on back now, y'hear? I can hardly wait.
One thing that I see from yourself and many others who share your belief is a level of anger or probably a better way to see it is "extreme determination" to make your point and to prove those who believe in a higher power wrong. May I ask why that is? I'm guessing that there is a lot of this going on in this forum (I don't spend much time in this forum), coming from both "sides", so to speak, so I don't mean to single you out. Just trying to understand it.
We live in a world where liars, cheaters and scammers are found in all walks of life. Understandably, many of us are weary and suspicious of claims that are made by people without any evidence to back them at all.
Belief in something on a little evidence is very reasonable. Belief in the absence of any evidence what so ever is not. Belief in deities is not based on any type of evidence.
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) posts and threads on this general subject. That anonymity has certainly brought out the true religion in the posting (and defensive but ever-evasive) Christians, and to a lesser extent, the Islamic perspective, which of late has been contaminated by the fanatical radical segment of that religious cohort.
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