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Old 05-27-2012, 04:16 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
4,117 posts, read 6,128,452 times
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After reading a thread dealing with prayer, I wanted to give a plausible explanation as to how , and why prayer works, or doesn't work.
I would first ask that when reading this post, you not take it as gospel, but instead use it for the purpose it was intended, and that is, to offer an explanation for things we encounter in our daily existence, and among them, prayer.
To begin, I think it is important to understand that as human beings (in spite of what has been taught through many mediums) man DOES NOT have free will.
That was a gift from God, but that will is a gift to the spirits only.
You need to understand that the spirit within each and every one of us, is the ruling factor in all life forms.
The creator instilled with in us this undeniable being that is responsible for all in our lives.
When I say all, I mean exactly that, ALL.
Nothing in our existence happens because we are human, mortal beings.
We humans are nothing more than a shell, window dressing if you will.
Without the spirit, we would cease to exist.
First, and most important we need to understand why a particular spirit chose you to be the host for the spirit.
What is it about you that the spirit felt it had to be incorporated into your existence?
Why not some other human specimen?
Why are so many in this world living in degrading conditions?
Why, as posted in that other thread, are people starving, when in other places in the world, people are living comfortably?
Why do you sometimes find the need to pray?
Why do you sometimes have doubts as to your belief in God, and the power of prayer?
Every one of these questions is answered in the existence of the spirit, or soul as some refer to it.
We were not there at the time of creation, so at best we can only speculate on what came first (the egg, or the chicken) the spirit, or the mortal being.
My guess, based on years of studying the spirit existence, would be the spirit came first, for with out it, there would be no mortal existence.
When the spirits were created, they were inhabitants of the universe as they continue to be today.
They were given free will to exist everywhere, and though they were not as pure as the creator, the need for absolute purity was instilled within them so that upon their judgement day, they would hopefully be of absolute purity.
To be pure is to be with the creator for eternity.
The spirits incarnate into all beings, and in doing so, live the life of that being until such time as it is no longer necessary, having achieved, or not achieved it's true destiny.
As I stated in the beginning, the spirits are the ruler of our human existence.
When they chose us in particular, there had to be a reason why you, and not some other being.
Some spirits are evil, while others are good.
Why is this?
Ever notice some people are really great, while others are as bad as bad can be?
That is because of the free will of spirits.
Spirits will be what they choose to be.
When we as humans pray for something, who are we praying too, and more importantly, why are we praying?
In reality, we are not praying, the spirit within us is praying.
Mortal man has not the capacity to contact, or reach the heavenly farther.
This is only achievable through the spirit.
If this were not so, would you not see this God that you are praying too?
So, why would a spirit need to pray.
Spirits, as with any other life form, occasionally need guidance.
Remember, they are not pure, or infallible.
Now we get to the point of why?
Why do certain things happen to certain people?
Why are some considered "blessed", while others suffer?
The answer lies in each individual spirit.
One who gave up a human body to return to the spirit world may have had a less than perfect existence in the human life it recently extricated itself from.
Now in a renewed effort for purity, it must serve what it considered a "penance", to make up for that less than perfect life it lived.
Spirits have the ability to know each and every facet of human life from the time of conception to death.
They measure that existence when contemplating which body they will re-incarnate too.
Depending on the degree of the penance needed, a spirit may incarnate into a body the it knows will suffer from birth till death.
Ever wonder why a baby is born blind, deft, mute, or some other physical, mental disability?
Why would a baby fresh from the womb be afflicted with such horror?
Why would a human live to be 95 or 100 years old?
Why would a person die at a young age?
All these action are controlled by the spirit.
If some of you think God must be responsible for all of this, think again.
Remember, God gave the spirits free will.
The spirits have the will to do anything,and that could be evil, or good.
When you see human suffering , be it individually, or group, that is the will of the spirit within.
More often than not, the suffering is an act of penance for the spirit.
So now you ask, how could a loving, caring God allow this to happen?
After all, the almighty God created the universe, surely the creator could see that this kind of suffering never happens.
Again, one needs to understand that it is all a master plan that on judgement day, all spirits must be answerable, and accountable for their existence.
Suffering is nothing more than a tool to gain penance in the ultimate goad for absolute purity.
Remember, we are talking an eternity, not the mere human existence.
Eternity is forever.
You probably want to know how thousands of people in Africa are starving, and dying on a daily basis, and many of them children.
You need to know within the universe, there are billions of spirits,many of which are still on that endless search for purity, and many of them are serving a penance to gain that purity.
Remember, spirits know a human existence from the beginning.
When they incarnate into a body, they are well aware the suffering that body will endure, and just how long that body will live.
This brings me to another point of existence, and once again, is the result of a spirit's decision.
You may see, or know of someone who died "way before their time".
Perhaps in a car accident, plane crash, war, etc.etc.
You ask why?
Again, it was destiny, and the spirit deemed it so.
Now, what about a baby that was born healthy, and died a week after birth?
Again, you find yourself asking why.
When the spirit incarnated into that body,it in all probability had a change of heart.
Perhaps it decided it was to soon to re-incarnate,so it left the body.
Without a soul, the body can not exist.
Science may try to keep a young, or aging body alive with technology, but when the spirit decided the time is at hand, the time is at hand, and no technology will alter that fact.
We have all heard, or used the expression, "when your number is up, it's up".
When you are meant to go, you go.
This is true, but the number is always being determined by the spirit.
Case in point.
How many of you remember seeing the jetliner in Souix city a few years back?
Remember it came in as a ball of fire, flipped over and broke apart.
Lesser plane crashes have killed all on board, but not in the case of this jetliner.
Those that survived did so because their spirit determined it was not time for them to perish.
Perhaps those spirits had more to accomplish before leaving those bodies.
So, this has been a long post, and I hope I have given you something to think about.
The beginning of this post was to explain why some prayers are answered(or doable), while others are not.
As a mortal being, do you need to believe in order for you prayers to be answered?
Absolutely not.
As a mortal, the believing is not up to you, but too the spirit within you.
Bob.

Last edited by CALGUY; 05-27-2012 at 05:42 PM..
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Old 05-27-2012, 09:49 PM
 
29,509 posts, read 5,661,217 times
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I don't buy it, I'm afraid. It is too much the old question of being unable to accept that things happen without any particular purpose. It seems inexplicable and often unfair, like some people surviving an accident where others don't. We look for some explanation and for patterns where none may actually exist. We tell ourselves that whatever happens was 'meant'.

So the reason I don't buy the 'Soul' explanation is that diseases of the brain or brain injuries show that consciousness is made (or at least communicated) by the brain, not by a soul. That characteristics are related to genetic rather than a soul that 'chose' a body is also evidence to me that there isn't a soul.
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Old 05-27-2012, 10:33 PM
 
16,301 posts, read 22,855,285 times
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Last edited by Asheville Native; 05-27-2012 at 10:44 PM..
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Old 05-27-2012, 10:49 PM
 
Location: Yuma, Az
344 posts, read 305,225 times
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To begin, I think it is important to understand that as human beings (in spite of what has been taught through many mediums) man DOES NOT have free will.
That was a gift from God, but that will is a gift to the spirits only..
./quote]

Well, you put in a long post there. I cut it back some. I'm wondering if you intended the long-winded entry for the eyes of "believers" and no one else. After all, it was in the "Religion and Philosophy" folder and not the "Atheist" folder. Anyway, as an atheist, I stopped right there where you referred to something as a "Gift from god". Other atheists might read further, but that would be just to get more bullets to shoot down your thoughts. Any non-religious theory or hypothesis that includes "gift from god" pretty much loses it's effectiveness. On the other hand, maybe you were going for more of the spiritual (i.e., religious), and the audience to match. If that is the case, you go right ahead. I apologize for the intrusion.
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Old 05-27-2012, 11:49 PM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 5,788,748 times
Reputation: 1784
Quote:
Originally Posted by CALGUY View Post
To begin, I think it is important to understand that as human beings (in spite of what has been taught through many mediums) man DOES NOT have free will.
Agreed
Quote:
That was a gift from God, but that will is a gift to the spirits only.
We do not have spirits, it is a euphemism for our sentience and self awareness as is soul.
Quote:
You need to understand that the spirit within each and every one of us, is the ruling factor in all life forms.
You mean our free will? That is a contradiction. How can our consciousness be a free will over our meat sacks? We are all of ourselves including our consciousness, our decision making processes etc. It all occurs in the brain, nowhere else.
Quote:
The creator instilled with in us this undeniable being that is responsible for all in our lives.
When I say all, I mean exactly that, ALL.
Nothing in our existence happens because we are human, mortal beings.
It is deniable as you have presented no evidence for any of us having this in the first instance.
Quote:
We humans are nothing more than a shell, window dressing if you will.
Without the spirit, we would cease to exist.
First, and most important we need to understand why a particular spirit chose you to be the host for the spirit.
What is it about you that the spirit felt it had to be incorporated into your existence?
Why not some other human specimen?
If god did give this spirit, then this spirit is thus responsible for a murderer's, a paedophile's, a rapist's actions.

I suppose you are going to blame this on some demonic force - huh? That would mean humans are powerless to resist the spirit word and thus whatever actions we do, is not our fault. That is a very schizophrenic outlook on life and one which the courts do not seem to entertain.

See the slippery slope?
Quote:
Why are so many in this world living in degrading conditions?
Why, as posted in that other thread, are people starving, when in other places in the world, people are living comfortably?
Because they had no say where they were born.

What you believer fail to grasp, god allegedly provided sustenance in the form of manna and quail in the ME to the Jews. Why not is Sudan?

Of course we all know exodus never happened and there was no manna or quail. We prompt you lot to explain why it takes human intervention like shipping food and aid in when your god has no issue finding you that promotion or perfect parking spot at Walmart but ignores his creation in Africa.

The theist thus is a special person and very egocentric just like the Jews claim they are a chosen race. It is all BS.
Quote:
Why do you sometimes find the need to pray?
Why do you sometimes have doubts as to your belief in God, and the power of prayer?
Every one of these questions is answered in the existence of the spirit, or soul as some refer to it.
So far you have failed to answer anything.
Quote:
We were not there at the time of creation, so at best we can only speculate on what came first (the egg, or the chicken) the spirit, or the mortal being.
Creation never happened.
Quote:
My guess, based on years of studying the spirit existence, would be the spirit came first, for with out it, there would be no mortal existence.
When the spirits were created, they were inhabitants of the universe as they continue to be today.
And they are conveniently invisible, totally undetectable and thus the same as santa and the tooth fairy.
Quote:
They were given free will to exist everywhere, and though they were not as pure as the creator, the need for absolute purity was instilled within them so that upon their judgement day, they would hopefully be of absolute purity.
So all atheists must have gotten bad spirits then?
Quote:
To be pure is to be with the creator for eternity.
How can we override the spirits if we have no say in the matter?
Quote:
The spirits incarnate into all beings, and in doing so, live the life of that being until such time as it is no longer necessary, having achieved, or not achieved it's true destiny.
So when your time is up, the spirit leaves you before your car collides with a drunk driver killing you and all your family?
Quote:
As I stated in the beginning, the spirits are the ruler of our human existence.
When they chose us in particular, there had to be a reason why you, and not some other being.
Some spirits are evil, while others are good.
Why is this?
Ever notice some people are really great, while others are as bad as bad can be?
That is because of the free will of spirits.
Spirits will be what they choose to be.
This is the old trick of shifting responsibility.
Quote:
When we as humans pray for something, who are we praying too, and more importantly, why are we praying?
In reality, we are not praying, the spirit within us is praying.
Atheists do not pray so that premise fails.
Quote:
-snip-
I think you will see it was easy to shoot down this idea. The rest of your post is more word salad.

There is no soul, and there are no spirits.

You premise is not biblical and does not even seem to tie into reincarnation models.
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Old 05-28-2012, 12:12 AM
 
151 posts, read 108,232 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
I don't buy it, I'm afraid. It is too much the old question of being unable to accept that things happen without any particular purpose. It seems inexplicable and often unfair, like some people surviving an accident where others don't. We look for some explanation and for patterns where none may actually exist. We tell ourselves that whatever happens was 'meant'.
and if the depth you're looking at for patterns is too shallow?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
So the reason I don't buy the 'Soul' explanation is that diseases of the brain or brain injuries show that consciousness is made (or at least communicated) by the brain, not by a soul. That characteristics are related to genetic rather than a soul that 'chose' a body is also evidence to me that there isn't a soul.
consciousness is purely a physical phenomena. consciousness is not the behavior of the soul. the soul is more of a feeling thing than an acting thing. before eve committed the first human sin, she first had to become conscious of a different will than God's--namely, hers. so, in order to sin, she has to first become conscious of herself. without being conscious, sin never has a foothole.

so, essentially, she gave herself to the physical state, the flesh.

your inference is really bad here, dude. thinking of the soul as any form of consciousness is practically the opposite of what it is. why else does Christianity state that peace is in RESTING in Jesus/ God?

one illustration is this: when you want to see if something is true and you seek to see if it SEEMS true, you refer to the imaginary clouds in your head. if you refer to your soul and wait for something to compel it, you're doing it right.

when you refer to a state of consciousness, you're referring to space in your head, which is just ONE of the physical sub-forms of what the soul is.

the soul is where the truth is felt, and were the peace is recieved. consciousness is just a sub-form that, if relied upon exclusively, is a negative tool.

so, in percieving truth, your whole system is faulty. so, when you seek to draw patterns and inferences on prayer (or anything), you're referring to the world of your head. and the head doesn't feel, the soul does. that's why you will never experience truth when you apply this system.
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Old 05-28-2012, 01:29 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles
4,117 posts, read 6,128,452 times
Reputation: 5350
Benmiller, you stated it perfectly.
What some people do not even try to understand is, the human brain, and the rest of the body are not in any way controlled by the human factor.
Thoughts and actions are not a human trait.
They are all spirit driven.
Humans, and all other life forms are incapable of the thought process.
We are nothing but a working tool for the spirit.
Our brains are but a source for that tool to function.
This very post that I am writing now is the result of the thought process, and action of the spirit that inhabits my body.
As stated in my first post, life forms are mere window dressing .
Our reason for being is to be the conduit by which the spirit embarks on it's journey to absolute purity.
The spirit thinks, and acts on those thoughts, while as human beings we automatically think we are the ones who do the thinking, and control the actions.
Everything having to do with life has it's origin in the spirit form.
All the thoughts and processes we as humans go through are the direct result of action by the spirit with in us.
An easy example would be this.
You are driving your vehicle, and something has caught your attention at the side of the road.
At this point, you are unaware you are headed in the direction to crash into a tree that is less than 20 feet ahead.
Suddenly, with no thought from you, your attention is focused not on what was at the side of the road, but the tree you are about to hit.
You recover in time, a bit shaken, but you were saved from what could have been a life threatening situation.
Now what was it that diverted your attention away from the side of the road, and on to the impending danger ahead?
Luck?
I think not.
Without the thought process of the spirit within us, perhaps our number would be up.
Those who do not believe in spirits, or the afterlife have nothing but vague untested excuses for their lives, and beliefs.
Some here have asked for proof of what I am saying.
That proof can only come from getting involved in the study of spirits.
There are many, many books on the subject, and the information in some of them have been as a result of direct spirit intervention in their creation.
It is very easy to say something does not exist if one fails to take the opportunity to investigate it's validity.
One other point I want to clarify , and that is related to one of the posters asking about people who kill, those that rape, and pedophiles.
If that poster had read one sentence in my original post, I stated there are good, as well as evil spirits.
Obviously someone who kills, or rapes could not be considered a good spirit.
The spirits make no exceptions.
We humans are but a reflection of the spirit within us.
We automatically act as the spirit would have us act.
If we kill someone purposely, we are doing as our spirit dictated we do through it's process of thought.
Everything in the universe, past present, and future, with the exception of it's creation is, and are as a direct result of spirit intervention.
No thought or action is forthcoming without the spirit intervention.
Without them, we would cease to exist.
Bob.
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Old 05-28-2012, 03:42 PM
 
29,509 posts, read 5,661,217 times
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i before e corrections provided without prejudice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by benmiller View Post
and if the depth you're looking at for patterns is too shallow?


consciousness is purely a physical phenomena. consciousness is not the behavior of the soul. the soul is more of a feeling thing than an acting thing. before eve committed the first human sin, she first had to become conscious of a different will than God's--namely, hers. so, in order to sin, she has to first become conscious of herself. without being conscious, sin never has a foothole.

so, essentially, she gave herself to the physical state, the flesh.

your inference is really bad here, dude. thinking of the soul as any form of consciousness is practically the opposite of what it is. why else does Christianity state that peace is in RESTING in Jesus/ God?

one illustration is this: when you want to see if something is true and you seek to see if it SEEMS true, you refer to the imaginary clouds in your head. if you refer to your soul and wait for something to compel it, you're doing it right.

when you refer to a state of consciousness, you're referring to space in your head, which is just ONE of the physical sub-forms of what the soul is.

the soul is where the truth is felt, and were the peace is received. consciousness is just a sub-form that, if relied upon exclusively, is a negative tool.

so, in perceiving truth, your whole system is faulty. so, when you seek to draw patterns and inferences on prayer (or anything), you're referring to the world of your head. and the head doesn't feel, the soul does. that's why you will never experience truth when you apply this system.
I can only say that if the patters we are shown as evidence for divine intervention seem to be misperceived and the only evidence for a soul is seen by me as unhelpful and by you as irrelevant, just what evidence do we have for these things you claim to be real? Just Faith?
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Old 05-28-2012, 06:54 PM
 
Location: in your dreams
10,892 posts, read 12,076,461 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CALGUY View Post
After reading a thread dealing with prayer, I wanted to give a plausible explanation as to how , and why prayer works, or doesn't work.
I would first ask that when reading this post, you not take it as gospel, but instead use it for the purpose it was intended, and that is, to offer an explanation for things we encounter in our daily existence, and among them, prayer.
To begin, I think it is important to understand that as human beings (in spite of what has been taught through many mediums) man DOES NOT have free will.
That was a gift from God, but that will is a gift to the spirits only.
You need to understand that the spirit within each and every one of us, is the ruling factor in all life forms.
The creator instilled with in us this undeniable being that is responsible for all in our lives.
When I say all, I mean exactly that, ALL.
Nothing in our existence happens because we are human, mortal beings.
We humans are nothing more than a shell, window dressing if you will.
Without the spirit, we would cease to exist.
First, and most important we need to understand why a particular spirit chose you to be the host for the spirit.
What is it about you that the spirit felt it had to be incorporated into your existence?
Why not some other human specimen?
Why are so many in this world living in degrading conditions?
Why, as posted in that other thread, are people starving, when in other places in the world, people are living comfortably?
Why do you sometimes find the need to pray?
Why do you sometimes have doubts as to your belief in God, and the power of prayer?
Every one of these questions is answered in the existence of the spirit, or soul as some refer to it.
We were not there at the time of creation, so at best we can only speculate on what came first (the egg, or the chicken) the spirit, or the mortal being.
My guess, based on years of studying the spirit existence, would be the spirit came first, for with out it, there would be no mortal existence.
When the spirits were created, they were inhabitants of the universe as they continue to be today.
They were given free will to exist everywhere, and though they were not as pure as the creator, the need for absolute purity was instilled within them so that upon their judgement day, they would hopefully be of absolute purity.
To be pure is to be with the creator for eternity.
The spirits incarnate into all beings, and in doing so, live the life of that being until such time as it is no longer necessary, having achieved, or not achieved it's true destiny.
As I stated in the beginning, the spirits are the ruler of our human existence.
When they chose us in particular, there had to be a reason why you, and not some other being.
Some spirits are evil, while others are good.
Why is this?
Ever notice some people are really great, while others are as bad as bad can be?
That is because of the free will of spirits.
Spirits will be what they choose to be.
When we as humans pray for something, who are we praying too, and more importantly, why are we praying?
In reality, we are not praying, the spirit within us is praying.
Mortal man has not the capacity to contact, or reach the heavenly farther.
This is only achievable through the spirit.
If this were not so, would you not see this God that you are praying too?
So, why would a spirit need to pray.
Spirits, as with any other life form, occasionally need guidance.
Remember, they are not pure, or infallible.
Now we get to the point of why?
Why do certain things happen to certain people?
Why are some considered "blessed", while others suffer?
The answer lies in each individual spirit.
One who gave up a human body to return to the spirit world may have had a less than perfect existence in the human life it recently extricated itself from.
Now in a renewed effort for purity, it must serve what it considered a "penance", to make up for that less than perfect life it lived.
Spirits have the ability to know each and every facet of human life from the time of conception to death.
They measure that existence when contemplating which body they will re-incarnate too.
Depending on the degree of the penance needed, a spirit may incarnate into a body the it knows will suffer from birth till death.
Ever wonder why a baby is born blind, deft, mute, or some other physical, mental disability?
Why would a baby fresh from the womb be afflicted with such horror?
Why would a human live to be 95 or 100 years old?
Why would a person die at a young age?
All these action are controlled by the spirit.
If some of you think God must be responsible for all of this, think again.
Remember, God gave the spirits free will.
The spirits have the will to do anything,and that could be evil, or good.
When you see human suffering , be it individually, or group, that is the will of the spirit within.
More often than not, the suffering is an act of penance for the spirit.
So now you ask, how could a loving, caring God allow this to happen?
After all, the almighty God created the universe, surely the creator could see that this kind of suffering never happens.
Again, one needs to understand that it is all a master plan that on judgement day, all spirits must be answerable, and accountable for their existence.
Suffering is nothing more than a tool to gain penance in the ultimate goad for absolute purity.
Remember, we are talking an eternity, not the mere human existence.
Eternity is forever.
You probably want to know how thousands of people in Africa are starving, and dying on a daily basis, and many of them children.
You need to know within the universe, there are billions of spirits,many of which are still on that endless search for purity, and many of them are serving a penance to gain that purity.
Remember, spirits know a human existence from the beginning.
When they incarnate into a body, they are well aware the suffering that body will endure, and just how long that body will live.
This brings me to another point of existence, and once again, is the result of a spirit's decision.
You may see, or know of someone who died "way before their time".
Perhaps in a car accident, plane crash, war, etc.etc.
You ask why?
Again, it was destiny, and the spirit deemed it so.
Now, what about a baby that was born healthy, and died a week after birth?
Again, you find yourself asking why.
When the spirit incarnated into that body,it in all probability had a change of heart.
Perhaps it decided it was to soon to re-incarnate,so it left the body.
Without a soul, the body can not exist.
Science may try to keep a young, or aging body alive with technology, but when the spirit decided the time is at hand, the time is at hand, and no technology will alter that fact.
We have all heard, or used the expression, "when your number is up, it's up".
When you are meant to go, you go.
This is true, but the number is always being determined by the spirit.
Case in point.
How many of you remember seeing the jetliner in Souix city a few years back?
Remember it came in as a ball of fire, flipped over and broke apart.
Lesser plane crashes have killed all on board, but not in the case of this jetliner.
Those that survived did so because their spirit determined it was not time for them to perish.
Perhaps those spirits had more to accomplish before leaving those bodies.
So, this has been a long post, and I hope I have given you something to think about.
The beginning of this post was to explain why some prayers are answered(or doable), while others are not.
As a mortal being, do you need to believe in order for you prayers to be answered?
Absolutely not.
As a mortal, the believing is not up to you, but too the spirit within you.
Bob.

I usually don't read super long posts, but was drawn to read this one today.

Great post. This touches on many things in which I already believe, as well as agree with. Thank you for sharing.
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