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Old 09-26-2007, 12:52 PM
 
9,742 posts, read 9,059,856 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasNick View Post
2. Does the teapot have any explanatory power?
"Because I said so," is hardly an explanation.

Christianity begins and ends with authoritarianism, which defies explanatory power, and as we know, is brutal and dangerous.

 
Old 09-26-2007, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Midwest
5,616 posts, read 13,647,633 times
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One at a time. Gotta go get some food in a bit...

Someone said that my Big Bang argument is not valid. But, for all matter and energy, even physical space and time themselves, came into being at the Big Bang. As the physicist P. C. W. Davies explains, "the coming into being of the universe, as discussed in modern science . . . is not just a matter of imposing some sort of organization . . . upon a previous incoherent state, but literally the coming-into-being of all physical things from nothing." http://aca.mq.edu.au/pdavies.html (broken link).

Of course, alternative theories have been crafted over the years to try to avoid this absolute beginning (and some have been posted here), but none of these theories has commended itself to the scientific community as more plausible than the Big Bang theory. In 2003 Arvind Borde, Alan Guth, and Alexander Vilenkin were able to prove that any universe which is, on average, in a state of cosmic expansion cannot be eternal in the past but must have an absolute beginning.

It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. With the proof now in place, cosmologists can no longer hide behind the possibility of a past-eternal universe. There is no escape, they have to face the problem of a cosmic beginning.
--Alex Vilenkin, Many Words in One: The Search for Other Universes (New York: Hill and Wang, 2006), p. 176.

I am not going to do the talking. I urge you all to read up on the material yourself if you want to learn more.
 
Old 09-26-2007, 02:18 PM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,119,545 times
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The problem I have is the logic of the whole story. Let me see if I got this right.
God made us imperfect, he knew he was making us imperfect as he knows everything. He knew we would "sin" in his eyes. He then has his son pay for our sins by dying. We all die, but somehow his death is more meaningful than ours. Although he really did not die, which kind of calls into question how big a sacrifice he made. Anyway, now we must "believe" that he died for our sins in order not to be tourtured for the rest of eternity. But if we do believe we get to float around on a cloud for eternity. And the point of this whole exersize is what? Personally I cannot believe something that does not make sense to me, it is just the way I am. I could pretend I believed but I would be lying to myself. Would that fool God into letting me into heaven? So I am left with the conclusion that God knew I would be who I am prior to making me, and yet made me anyway knowing he was setting me up to be tortured forever. Is the imperfection of mankind our mistake or his?
Perhaps there is somekind of supeme being, I don't know, but if there is, it seems to me they would have a more logical reason for the creation of the Universe than that.
 
Old 09-26-2007, 02:48 PM
 
Location: Midwest
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Hey Jim,
Check out this video:
YouTube - Pain and Suffering-Debate 2 of 2 (Dr. William Lane Craig)

It probably does not answer your question, but it's a good start.
 
Old 09-26-2007, 03:17 PM
 
Location: Wilmington, DE
679 posts, read 1,325,440 times
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Vilenkin believes in a multiverse and eternal inflation. He admits that there's no proof of eternal inflation, just that there's suitable evidence that the theory is correct. interview
That's fine, and I find theoretical science fascinating. His theories include that countless baby universes are made from big bangs as a result of dark energy which he ties to his conservational constant. Heady stuff that I can't pretend to fully understand but basically it seems as if universes make new universes. I don't quite see the connection between that and a universe being created out of nothing. Wouldn't the matter and energy come from the universe that spawned it? Of course I then read something about each universe not necessarily having the same physical laws and at that point my head hurt to much to go on.

Now what I don't follow is why you bring him up, TexasNick. Granted, his theories may afford you some credibility to the idea that the universe sprang forth out of nothing but it doesn't speak to a god. On the contrary, it explains god away, doesn't it?

As to the video, I love this line:
When pain and suffering enter our lives, how can the atheist possibly know that god does not have a morally adequate reason for permitting it?
and then he goes on about the tremendous burden atheists shoulder in trying to fathom the motivations of your god and then goes on about the pitfalls in trying to do that. You know what? I agree. It is a tremendous burden to prove what the motivations of your god are, not the least of which is the initial problem of first having to prove the god exists. I would think before you start trying to figure out the motivations of someone, you have to know that they exist. That's the biggest burden to shoulder, imo. After that, then you can worry about the rest.
 
Old 09-26-2007, 11:50 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,715 posts, read 12,038,211 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasNick View Post

Someone said that my Big Bang argument is not valid.
I'm not sure if you were referring to me or not, but I was not saying that the Big Bang argument is invalid. If it sounded that way, it's not the way it was intended. I wanted to let you know that there are other theories out there, one of them "The M Theory" or otherwise known as "The Master Theory" has a very plausible explanation that many physicists have really found enlightening. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find a well-written article on it that can boil it down to lamen's terms. It's extremely complicated, and other theories of physics are used to describe it as well. You can wikipedia "M Theory" and see what I mean. It's descriptive but you have to more or less know what the "string theory" is before you can apply it to the "M Theory". I don't know, try and read it, perhaps you will understand it.
 
Old 09-27-2007, 01:50 AM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,797 posts, read 6,119,545 times
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When trying to figure where everything came from Im not sure I believe in the physical universe either. The laws of physics say you cannot make something from nothing, therefore you are left with the conclusion that matter in some form, has always existed, which brings you back to square one, or that matter does not exist at all... in which case the physical universe does not exist and we only imagine it.
 
Old 09-27-2007, 08:17 AM
 
Location: Midwest
5,616 posts, read 13,647,633 times
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I can't respond further on any additional scientific theories when it comes to the origin of the universe. I do not have a background in this field, however, the question still needs to be asked: How can something come from nothing?

Some theories claim to answer this, but the truth is, no one really knows and none are widely accepted other than the Christian belief that God created the universe. Whether you choose to believe it is up to you, but I believe that this is the more plausible one.

I wont' argue further. Thanks guys, good debate.
 
Old 09-27-2007, 08:29 AM
 
Location: Wilmington, DE
679 posts, read 1,325,440 times
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It hasn't even been decided that "something came from nothing", so if that's your starting premise, you're already at odds with many people.

Quote:
Some theories claim to answer this, but the truth is, no one really knows and none are widely accepted other than the Christian belief that God created the universe.
Define "widely" and then define where, because there might be plenty of people that believe some god or gods made everything, but I guarantee you the majority of them aren't christian. Maybe in the US, but not worldwide.
You have not shown why a magical creator is more plausible than anything else, so I don't know why you would say such a belief is more plausible. That sounds silly to say without some kind of preface like "I choose to believe" or "my faith dictates" or something along those lines.
 
Old 09-27-2007, 12:04 PM
 
1,964 posts, read 5,652,787 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasNick View Post
I can't respond further on any additional scientific theories when it comes to the origin of the universe. I do not have a background in this field, however, the question still needs to be asked: How can something come from nothing?

Some theories claim to answer this, but the truth is, no one really knows and none are widely accepted other than the Christian belief that God created the universe. Whether you choose to believe it is up to you, but I believe that this is the more plausible one.

I wont' argue further. Thanks guys, good debate.
You ask how can something come from nothing- if this poses a problem for the universe it poses an equal problem for "god"- god could not have come from nothing. None are widely accepted other than the Christian belief???? You are aware that there are numerous creation myths, are you not?
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