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I think you misunderstood me. I said that there have been atheist who take an "eliminationist" view of religion and commit violence because of their hostility. I think that can happen because it has happened. Anti-clerical violence is not that infrequently about an atheist or atheist movement being hostile to a religion. Let me cite Enver Hoxha and Tomás Garrido Canabal again, but "louder" this time so you can hear me as well as maybe Joseph Fouche (a former priest).
Now granted it's true that atheism, in itself, is not a motivation for anything. It motivates no good or ill because it describes what one isn't rather than describing what they are. However I was specifically stating that an atheist can be "eliminationist" on the subject of religion. I gave you examples and with more research I could maybe give you more. If after this you'll need to play some weird historical revisionism or denialism to get by in life that will be up to you, I accept people's need for certain biases or outright delusions, but I don't think atheism is even requiring you do that. I think it's just some weird issue some atheists have.
Anyone can be an eliminationist(Is this even a word?), but they don't do it in the name of "lack of belief in gods". They have other reasons for it. Their being atheist has no direct correlation to them killing people. You claim they are being persecuted but you forget that they are messing with peoples beliefs and trying to convert everyone, some cultures do not like their religious beliefs to be mocked in such a way. If you ask me, they deserve what they get, I wouldn't go to Iraq and try to convert anyone to Christianity and I would never preach atheism, unless I wanted to be killed. This isn't persecution, these people are standing up for their beliefs just as I am certain you and other christians would do.
Yes, but there were cases where an element of that ideology was a specific hostility to religion. Look up "Four Olds" and the "League of the Militant Godless." Heck I'll even start you on that.
Anyone who can't see this is either severely lacking in the education department or is a poe.
Too many Christians do fixate on the anti-religion aspect of Communism and ignore it was an overarching ideology. Or dismiss that it's not relational to most atheists.
However I find atheists too dismissive of the fact that it was, usually, an atheistic ideology that often did attack religion for being religion. Or take a "Christians had it coming" attitude. There's a book called Naming Infinity that might interest or enlighten you. The writers are, I think, irreligious but they detail the persecution of heterodox Christian mathematicians under the Soviets. (The book is criticized with not dealing with the subject very well, which might be true, but it's still an interesting subject) As many of you like videos here's the co-author on his book.
As for "eliminationist" it's a word I learned in connection with Holocaust studies. I think it was in Daniel Goldhagen's, who's no friend of Christianity, Hitler's Willing Executioners. I had a variety of problems with his book, I think his understanding of human psychology was rather off and that he places too much onus on Christians, but the word has a certain utility. Although possibly the word is "Exterminationist" rather than "eliminationist."
And anyway no it's not atheism in itself, I've been consistent on that. However it does flow from anti-theism and hostility to religion. Atheists who are not hostile to religion would have no reason, I don't think, to be offended by what I'm saying. But whatever you need to believe I guess. (I'm working on my Master's in History, I should have finished my thesis and should be working on it now, so I'm not a total rube history. Also I'm trying to avoid sources even by Christian University Presses. This causes difficulty as non-religious sources often appear uninterested in persecutions of Christians in Laos or Vietnam)
Last edited by Thomas R.; 07-13-2012 at 12:03 AM..
Yes, but there were cases where an element of that ideology was a specific hostility to religion. Look up "Four Olds" and the "League of the Militant Godless." Heck I'll even start you on that.
Too many Christians do fixate on the anti-religion aspect of Communism and ignore it was an overarching ideology. Or dismiss that it's not relational to most atheists.
However I find atheists too dismissive of the fact that it was, usually, an atheistic ideology that often did attack religion for being religion. Or take a "Christians had it coming" attitude. There's a book called Naming Infinity that might interest or enlighten you. The writers are, I think, irreligious but they detail the persecution of heterodox Christian mathematicians under the Soviets.
And anyway no it's not atheism in itself, I've been consistent on that. However it does flow from atheists hostile to religion. But whatever you need to believe I guess. (I'm working on my Master's in History, should be working on my thesis now, so I'm not a total rube on this topic and I'm trying to avoid sources even by Christian University Presses)
The league of militant godless never killed anyone. And I can't seem to find out any more info on the other one.
DO you deny that for centuries the Christian religion killed millions of people in the name of their religion and god? For example, do you deny the crusades? or the witch burning that is happening in Africa right now?
All I am trying to say is that for communism to work, you can't have people worshiping some god or thinking they are superior. If you really are studying history it isn't hard to see this. Get rid of religion and people begin to fall in line.
The league of militant godless never killed anyone. And I can't seem to find out any more info on the other one.
DO you deny that for centuries the Christian religion killed millions of people in the name of their religion and god? For example, do you deny the crusades? or the witch burning that is happening in Africa right now?
No, I don't deny that. Have I ever? Although I think the Crusades was something of a cultural war between Islam and Christianity so it's not quite right to place it all on Christians. Still the Albigensian Crusade, many persecutions of Jews, the wars of Reformation, Hernan De Soto, various abuses of the indigenous, and such are mostly on Christians. In the American Southwest one of the Franciscan missionaries, of all people, poured turpentine on a Hopi and then set him on fire for mocking him.
There are many bad Christians throughout history. However in those eras death was commonplace and people sometimes didn't know what to do with younger sons. So you had lots of young landless men living with death all around. Not a good situation, but not unique to the Christian world. When we look at dynastic China or pre-Mughal India or the Aztecs we also see lots of death, murder, and slaughter.
There is some elements of early Christian history that leads to more religious than ethnic violence. Pre-Christian people slaughtered societies for being enemies of the State or for imperial conquest. Christians were maybe more willing to accept ethnicities in the hopes they'd convert, than attack them if they didn't. In the Islamic world of today nations like Iran kill people over religion while more secular-nationalist regimes, like Syria, kill people over ethnicity or disobedience. I know atheists who sincerely feel being killed for State and Ethnicity is better, but on some level dead is dead.
But anyway yes I don't deny Christians have killed tens of thousands, maybe up to a million, for their religion. Or that Confucians killed for societal stability or even Buddhists (in Myanmar and Sri Lanka) for some kind of national unity.
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Originally Posted by raison_d'etre
Get rid of religion and people begin to fall in line.
What an intriguing thing to say. Yes when you get rid of religion it does seem people "fall in line" to totalitarian state easier. It's hard for the State to "be everything" if you believe there's a God above it. (In fairness some get around this by saying the state serves God or is even the sole representative of God on Earth)
That, if I may say so, is the essential futility of the 'great atrocity debate'. The wagging around of Stalin and Pol Pot leads to 'well what about the crusades and witch - burnings?'
Then you get 'Oh those were nothing to do with Christianity - more a cultural thing.' which is 'Not real Christians' on an industrial scale. So the other side says that Stalin and Pol pot were 'not real atheists' which I think is a valid point. Their dogmas were- dogmas and more religions without a god - other than the Great Leader.
So we can get the get -out that the Crusades and Witch - burnings were long ago. Well, the atheist dictatorships are also (like the theist ones) gone, apart from the North Korean Kim- cult. Which is Emperor - worship in stalinist trappings and no more to do with atheism than our gun- totin' Norwegian loon is anything to do with Christianity in any real sense.
And none of this is anything to do with the case for or against religion or atheism. It is all about trying to make religion look necessary (true or not) simply because atheism (so the argument is intended to show) is always going to lead to murderous Marxist dictators.
That just isn't reasonable any more. If there is a matter that needs attention is in the attitudes of sectors of religion to gay issues, womens' equality, the need for education to be science - based and the need to make offending ministers accountable. That, not anything that atheism is doing (at worst the unforgivable crime of being vociferous) is where the criticism should be directed.
later...sorry, had to make our daily bread. ..On a more positive note I don't see 'Hitler was an atheist' around so much, and it seems that the message has got through that he was really not an atheist - certainly not a 'real' atheist.
And fair to say I don't think he was a real Christian either. True he came to accommodation with them and he incorporated various Christian ideas into his own Divine Destiny plan. He also hob - nobbed with the Vatican as indeed he did with the Soviets as long as it suited him. So did we. From Barbarossa to the partition of Germany the Soviets were the Good Guys with God on their side, excuse me while I smile.
This is all man -made politics as well as man - made religion and the atrocity debate proves nothing and solves nothing. It is no more than a red herring at best and a fallacious argument at worst.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 07-13-2012 at 02:18 AM..
No, I don't deny that. Have I ever? Although I think the Crusades was something of a cultural war between Islam and Christianity so it's not quite right to place it all on Christians. Still the Albigensian Crusade, many persecutions of Jews, the wars of Reformation, Hernan De Soto, various abuses of the indigenous, and such are mostly on Christians. In the American Southwest one of the Franciscan missionaries, of all people, poured turpentine on a Hopi and then set him on fire for mocking him.
Well, it was started and blessed by the pope. It was a campaign to regain control of holy places. The Islam nations were actually quite advanced in many sciences and most of it was lost because as a direct result from the Christian crusaders. Now, I can't exactly blame the soldiers, as most of them were just doing what they were told. In such a time to defy the kingdom would result in death and sometimes death for your whole family. It really is a tragic time in human history.
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There are many bad Christians throughout history. However in those eras death was commonplace and people sometimes didn't know what to do with younger sons. So you had lots of young landless men living with death all around. Not a good situation, but not unique to the Christian world. When we look at dynastic China or pre-Mughal India or the Aztecs we also see lots of death, murder, and slaughter
. No it isn't all that unique. Never said it was. The first recorded war was 2700 BC. There were Probably earlier wars, but writing hadn't been invented yet. That's almost five thousand years of killing each other. It's the one thing human beings have been consistently good at.
Quote:
There is some elements of early Christian history that leads to more religious than ethnic violence. Pre-Christian people slaughtered societies for being enemies of the State or for imperial conquest. Christians were maybe more willing to accept ethnicities in the hopes they'd convert, than attack them if they didn't. In the Islamic world of today nations like Iran kill people over religion while more secular-nationalist regimes, like Syria, kill people over ethnicity or disobedience. I know atheists who sincerely feel being killed for State and Ethnicity is better, but on some level dead is dead.
Being killed for any sort of social label is terrible. To kill or be killed because of some banner we decided to raise is ridiculous.
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But anyway yes I don't deny Christians have killed tens of thousands, maybe up to a million, for their religion. Or that Confucians killed for societal stability or even Buddhists (in Myanmar and Sri Lanka) for some kind of national unity.
I thin we could go on for days discussing the deaths that are directly attributed to religious beliefs. Sad isn't it?
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What an intriguing thing to say. Yes when you get rid of religion it does seem people "fall in line" to totalitarian state easier. It's hard for the State to "be everything" if you believe there's a God above it. (In fairness some get around this by saying the state serves God or is even the sole representative of God on Earth)
[/quote] When a state serves only the state or a religious deity/belief it never seems to serve anyone well. This is why we need to have secular states, everyone is free to believe what they want, but government, laws, and education should be free of religious ideologies. We need to focus on the fact that we are all human, sure we have our differences, but what is the point in arguing and fighting over them. We need to focus what is good for the overall people, not a majority, or a minority but all people. I find it odd that a country with a constitution that says, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal" could find cause to find and fight over our differences.
This is why I think thread where people are boasting the fact that an atheist converted to (insert religion) is dumb. Who cares what our personal religious beliefs are or aren't.
And I don't need to. It's my opinion and I have the right to have it.
Just like everyone else. When things get interesting is when people can bring up concrete evidence and reasoning to back up their opinions. That's what separates the good ideas from the bad.
Mr. Rifleman, maybe you can help me on this. Why are atheists almost always hostile and condesceding? I mean, if one aquires such joy from the freedom of being Godless, essentially making themselves their own god, I would think one would be pleasant and not feel the need to pick on us dummies wit dat whatchumacallit uh uh faith riiight? I stooped to your level just then, I'm sorry.
Atheists do some good in the world. You are not better and not worse, nor am I. Every atheist I know had religion shoved down their throats when they were younger, so its hard to say if they do not believe or are just angry. I myself (seemingly a good thing almost) didn't have that. My grandmother went Jehovas Witness on my mom and she struggled for the longest looking for proof, because what she saw was ugly and distorted. She was misinformed. No one taught me about God. No one. I went to church as a kid a few times with relatives or friends and I have maybe one good memory. I have more not good ones. I was a child but I judged those preachers and what they were saying. I was so pissed at them for saying such idiotic things about God. Now I see they simply didn't understand. They thought they were teaching us about God. No, they made Him less than He is and my point is this. I know you are a grown man and like you said battled with faith for some time. Sounds like you didn't give up easy. Dude I don't care how old you are though, listen seriously. NEVER LET ANYONE TELL YOU WHO GOD IS! WHY WOULD YOU LET PEOPLE YOU HAVE NO RESPECT FOR, DEFINE FOR YOU, THE ONE THING NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO TAKE AWAY? Man take the gift. What is there to lose? You carry on, here there silently thank empty space. Silently ask for something. Try. No rules. As you are. Just try again.
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