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I would say that moral behavior requires objectivity (Logos)
You would be wrong. Moral behaviour requires a consensus of respect for the wishes of other people.
Thus the rest of your post is without merit.
However it does illustrate the 'Why do some insist..?' Title.
Because in some lousy book of christian apologetics, somebody argued that there was no morality without God giving it and the fact that we had it therefore proved God.
Thus it is one of the best - prized attacks -yes - attack- on the argument for secularism in the theist armoury. It is utterly wrong, like their 'Sin is all our fault', 'Josephus, Tacitus etc proves the bible,/ 'Newton, Galileo, Einstein believed in God' and all the other dismal, tired, weary FALSE arguments that we get presented here again and again.
And each time it seems to result in 80 pages of trying to get a theist fathead to accept what is proven as much as any reasonable person could want. but instead we get denial, dishonesty and the fingers-in the ears song.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 06-27-2012 at 03:01 AM..
and how are you going to respect the wishes of others if you only see what you want to see?
seeing things from others point of view rather than simply from your own selfish subjective point of view is what objectivity is all about.
Yet you display no objectivity in your stated views, continually insisting that all who disagree with you are wrong. Not even a "christian" point of view.
and how are you going to respect the wishes of others if you only see what you want to see?
seeing things from others point of view rather than simply from your own selfish subjective point of view is what objectivity is all about.
LOL!
See what we want to see? Like magic men floating around in the sky? Or a red guy with a forked tail roasting sinners?
Given that objectivity is completely dependent on REALITY it is beyond bizarre to claim that only those whose beliefs are faith based are the only ones who can grasp it.
Then you are the exception, for most are clearly obsessed with collecting enough glory tickets to guarantee their admission to a non-existent afterlife of luxury and gluttony.
To the contrary! You don't see it because it's done behind the scenes, it's not newsworthy, and more than anything else, you don't want to see it.
Resulting obvious conclusions? There simply are no absolutes in spirituality, only in science (as in: gravity exists, Evolution exists, geological sedimentation exists, the sun exists, and fossil remains exist, while Godly miracles and talking snakes do not, except in the minds and imaginations of those who seem to want and need to believe in them.)
I'm sure you would admit though, we don't know everything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman
So one must reasonably inquire... why would a person willingly buy into the whole religious "shee-bang"? To what positive end, exactly? All while wasting otherwise precious time we could spend by helping others in a secular manner?"Just the facts, ma'am!" Quote: Sgt. Joe Friday.
Wasting time time helping others? Seriously?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman
Btw, do you also proselytize to the folks you are helping, jj? As an added bonus to them, as you'd probably see it? Just curious, as usual...
Depends on the situation. Our food bank does not. Our medical and dental clinic does not. If someone comes in asking for money, we generally ask them if they have a church affiliation, which may lead to inquiries about their spiritual condition.
and how are you going to respect the wishes of others if you only see what you want to see?
seeing things from others point of view rather than simply from your own selfish subjective point of view is what objectivity is all about.
Seeing what you want to see is what you do and applying your own subjective point of view rather than objectivity is also what you do.
There is some fundamental problem with theists wherein their Faith skewed view of everything leads them to believe that anyone who thinks any other way is somehow being blind or biased or unreasonable or subjective. In fact the only viewpoint that is not all those things is the one that goes with the merits of the evidence assessed logically. But every time we try to do it, we get al this 'how do you know this isn't possible...can you prove conclusively that this is so...you don't see this because you don't have faith'.
Since that is the way you think - your subjective opinions are true and sucks and stomp off fuming to anyone who does not accept them - how are you ever going to respect the wishes of others?
My life with God and Christ has caused me to focus on the needs of others rather than on my own.
Do you feel that because you have focused on the needs of others that you should get into your heaven or have a better chance?
I am asking because you clearly say that your beliefs is what makes you focus on the needs of others. If it is merely to help you get through the pearly gates of your heaven, then wouldn't it reason that it is a focus on your own needs?
If it wasn't a focus on your own needs then you would help others even if it meant you would go to your hell.
I'm not in anyway trying to take away what you do for others. If you do what you say, and I have no evidence that you don't, I commend you.
Do you feel that because you have focused on the needs of others that you should get into your heaven or have a better chance?
I am asking because you clearly say that your beliefs is what makes you focus on the needs of others. If it is merely to help you get through the pearly gates of your heaven, then wouldn't it reason that it is a focus on your own needs?
If it wasn't a focus on your own needs then you would help others even if it meant you would go to your hell.
I'm not in anyway trying to take away what you do for others. If you do what you say, and I have no evidence that you don't, I commend you.
This is an old pont that sometimes crops up and it's a rather nice one. We argue that Theists only do good because they want to get entry to heaven points. They say that it isn't - they do it because they want to.
The goddless then say 'well, so do we.' which means that not having a god -belief does not preclude good behaviour.
Having said that, though there is the perception that being religious can inspire one to do more good deeds than being irreligious. On the other hand, there is the suspicion that pleasing God (and the idea that one is possibly going to miss out on something if one doesn't) can never be ruled out as a motivation.
So one must reasonably inquire... why would a person willingly buy into the whole religious "shee-bang"? To what positive end, exactly? All while wasting otherwise precious time we could spend by helping others in a secular manner? "Just the facts, ma'am!" Quote: Sgt. Joe Friday.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
Wasting time time helping others? Seriously?
As always, you mis-interprete, jj! Let me re-state it, OK?:
"All while wasting otherwise precious time we could spend by helping others in a secular manner? "
Q: how exactly could you mis-understand this simple statement? Oh well: let me re-phrase it for you!
A person who is focusing on meeting some pre-determined religious hokus-pokus mandate as a prime & critical element of all of their help to others is, IMHO, wasting time that they could otherwise be spending by helping others through solely secular, non-theistically limited ways.
In other words, if you still don't get it: working so-called godly miracles under the mantle of social work, etc., is, IMHO, time wasted when compared to just getting the job done with no pre-determined limits, no "...but you only get God's lollipop if you repeat these biblical phrases after me!" type stuff.
Especially since he is NOT the way the truth or the light! He doesn't exist, but is just a figment of the wishful and frightened imaginations of a lot of mis-led people. And "majority beliefs" in him do not account for a hill of beans, btw. After all, we all believed in a giant sea turtle carrying a flat earth around on it's back a few millennia ago, right? Am I right?
Ahhh... Now the dim light comes on, right? You're welcome!
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We argue that Theists only do good because they want to get entry to heaven points. They say that it isn't - they do it because they want to.
Seems a little special tutoring is in order....
