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Another meaningless one liner answer then. Expected as much.
Again I never said it is not natural to human existence. I never said it in post #26. I never said it in post #28. I explained at length in #28 how I never said it in #26. And yet here you are still acting like I said it.
I am now unsure whether you are just trolling, straw manning, or simply do not understand what I am saying.
Do you know what Nozz....I spent about 3 hours taking exact word for word notes from this first clip ...and his exact wording is very very clear, there is no inter meaning, he is a very very exact & clear guy...if you have a point....go get a quote from the tape and bring it forward to justify your thinking....otherwise...what can I say about your approach....your speaking for him now...oh really? Ive already made the notes and know exactly whats being said.
go get a quote from the tape and bring it forward to justify your thinking....
Gladly. I also have the added advantage that I have read all he has written, and watched more than just one video. So I know his position quite well and where I agree and disagree with it.
Also the funny thing is that when you ask me to bring forward quotes to support my position.... I notice YOU are not doing that. Seems only I have to back up my position and you do not. Nice. Typical.
Firstly in the opening 3 minutes he says "The reality of death is Central to Religion". (2:35) Not the "fear" of death as you are misrepresenting it. The entire Reality of it. It is death as a subject as a whole that he is talking about here, not just the simplified version of fear of death that you have distilled the entire speech down to.
You are trying to paint it that his point is that people only think there is a god because of the "fear" of death. His speech is much deeper than that. One example he gives (3:58) is that people are just unable to picture death. They mistake "nothing for something" and imagine "an eternity of silent darkness". Their belief in god therefore is not predicated on a fear of death, but a simple inability to even understand or picture death at all. The human difficulty of really visualizing nothing is what often leads to people being unable or unwilling to think death really is the end.
He then makes the claim that "People are desperate to believe patent nonsense for purely emotional reasons" (12:40) and that when we are arguing about religion "we are really arguing about death".
Then around (16:00) he suggests that much of religion helps us not engage with peoples grief, or to mask your own, in the face of death.
While fear of death is a reason for many to think there is a god and an after life... it is not the only reason out there and neither I, nor Harris, are claiming that.
Your whole position therefore is to debunk something that no one here is actually claiming.
Gladly. I also have the added advantage that I have read all he has written, and watched more than just one video. So I know his position quite well and where I agree and disagree with it.
Also the funny thing is that when you ask me to bring forward quotes to support my position.... I notice YOU are not doing that. Seems only I have to back up my position and you do not. Nice. Typical.
Firstly in the opening 3 minutes he says "The reality of death is Central to Religion". (2:35) Not the "fear" of death as you are misrepresenting it. The entire Reality of it. It is death as a subject as a whole that he is talking about here, not just the simplified version of fear of death that you have distilled the entire speech down to.
You are trying to paint it that his point is that people only think there is a god because of the "fear" of death. His speech is much deeper than that. One example he gives (3:58) is that people are just unable to picture death. They mistake "nothing for something" and imagine "an eternity of silent darkness". Their belief in god therefore is not predicated on a fear of death, but a simple inability to even understand or picture death at all. The human difficulty of really visualizing nothing is what often leads to people being unable or unwilling to think death really is the end.
He then makes the claim that "People are desperate to believe patent nonsense for purely emotional reasons" (12:40) and that when we are arguing about religion "we are really arguing about death".
Then around (16:00) he suggests that much of religion helps us not engage with peoples grief, or to mask your own, in the face of death.
While fear of death is a reason for many to think there is a god and an after life... it is not the only reason out there and neither I, nor Harris, are claiming that.
Your whole position therefore is to debunk something that no one here is actually claiming.
Well...hes clear
Sam Harris:
Speaking about death after several comments criticizing religion says..
11:43
" So what does Atheism have to offer people like ourselves.... and.....people more "fearful" and self decieved then ourselves...that great body of humanity that recoils at the mere suggestion that a first century carpenter may not hear their thoughts "much less" answer their prayers"
13:06
"most people most of the time are desperate to believe ridiculous and decisive ideas for emotional reasons and while rarely explicit what they are really worried about is death. While we are arguing about what we are teaching in schools, I would argue what we are really arguing about is death. It seems to me the only reason a religous person cares about evolution is because if their holy books are wrong about our origins then its very likely they are wrong about our destiny after death.... so when you say to someone, that your a fool for not believing in evolution, I think that gets translated as, your a fool to think your daughter who died in a car accident is really in heaven with God"
As well as adding to my obvious point...I think this above paragraph is very telling with respects to a general moral decency, that is, speaking to 4000 people and making such a cavaleir comment about not just a persons child, in an unfortunate early death, gut your daughter. It was absolutely unnecessary and uttered with as much tone as an occasion of getting off work or like routine. I'm going to be drawing out all of Sams confusions, inefficiency's and lack of simple upright honesty....and as we surely see here an indecent way to conduct oneself. An embarrassment to any good atheist to be most sure.
Last edited by stargazzer; 07-04-2012 at 05:26 PM..
Yes, indeed, Harris does not kowtow to me and my ideas as much as I would like. Such indecency cannot be tolerated, so his arguments are false. To the lions with him!
I thought so too, but the fact I am hear explaining to you that he is not saying what you claim he is saying makes me wonder. Though given you are the ONLY person who seems to be holding this interpretation the problem likely lies with you, not him. The added obvious fact that English is not your first language adds to this conclusion. As does your pointless trolling comments like "Reverend Harris".
Quote:
Originally Posted by stargazzer
So what does Atheism have to offer people like ourselves.... and.....people more "fearful" and self decieved then ourselves...
This proves my point. You ignore the AND part. He is talking about fears yes, but he is talking about much more too. All my posts so far have shown that and now YOUR post is showing that. You are making my point for me yet sitting there acting like some how you are disagreeing with me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stargazzer
most people most of the time are desperate to believe ridiculous and decisive ideas for emotional reasons and while rarely explicit what they are really worried about is death. While we are arguing about what we are teaching in schools, I would argue what we are really arguing about is death.
Again you make my point for me. Here he is not just talking about fear of dying, but a general worry and concern about the subject of death as a whole. You are desperate to reduce that to a fear of dying and nothing else yet the entire speech, as I have shown in all my posts and now you are proving in your own post, is about much more than just that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stargazzer
and as we surely see here an indecent way to conduct oneself. An embarrassment to any good atheist to be most sure.
While we should have some sympathy for peoples emotional pains and losses, this should not stop us from exploring and declaring what is true. All Sam is saying here is that atheists need to be aware what the effect of their words can have is, and maybe try to temper their delivery to account for this. At no point however is there a suggestion that we should stop the fight against religion, stop pointing out that there is no reason to think there is a god or an after life, and no reason to stand up to those who sell and profit from woo ideas, falsehoods and fantasy.
I thought so too, but the fact I am hear explaining to you that he is not saying what you claim he is saying makes me wonder. Though given you are the ONLY person who seems to be holding this interpretation the problem likely lies with you, not him. The added obvious fact that English is not your first language adds to this conclusion. As does your pointless trolling comments like "Reverend Harris".
This proves my point. You ignore the AND part. He is talking about fears yes, but he is talking about much more too. All my posts so far have shown that and now YOUR post is showing that. You are making my point for me yet sitting there acting like some how you are disagreeing with me.
Again you make my point for me. Here he is not just talking about fear of dying, but a general worry and concern about the subject of death as a whole. You are desperate to reduce that to a fear of dying and nothing else yet the entire speech, as I have shown in all my posts and now you are proving in your own post, is about much more than just that.
While we should have some sympathy for peoples emotional pains and losses, this should not stop us from exploring and declaring what is true. All Sam is saying here is that atheists need to be aware what the effect of their words can have is, and maybe try to temper their delivery to account for this. At no point however is there a suggestion that we should stop the fight against religion, stop pointing out that there is no reason to think there is a god or an after life, and no reason to stand up to those who sell and profit from woo ideas, falsehoods and fantasy.
I'm enthralled to see you here in this thread and was hoping you would have the time. If my memory serves me correctly, you are no stranger to the meditative approach. Hatha yoga and some meditation would be my experience including some of the ancient readings a few years ago. As well, I have no interest in detaching myself from the value in meditation and any applause which Sam Harris deserves for his suggestion. I simply find his approach, attitude, knowledge in the feild including the platform very much distant, from genuine well being. Here then is Part 2 followed by a day or so break.
Part 2
Without opinion from this desk the assertion that nothing happens after death by philosopher Sam Harris is here-bye brought forward in a word for word disclosure in his presentation.
The section below is very concise, self explanatory and includes a very questionable consequence where Dr Harris advises the good atheist within this subject matter..... "life is the problem.
In the form of guidance a suggestive is fully enclosed to the good hard working atheist, a communication... life is your problem.
The good Doctor has a remedy for his followers if you care to follow his new cult which is explained as the presentation continues. The remedy will be spoken to later. Dr Harris speaks about meditation, art & music.
Here below is the statement, an assertion, followed by the suggested consequence.
Doctor Sam Harris:
The good news of Atheism is that nothing happens after death, nothing to worry about. Nothing to fear, after you pass on you return to your nothingness that you were before you were born....if we are right every religion devised is false. Also if we are right, death therefore is not a problem...life is the problem.
Strgzr: ( Thank-you Dr Sam Harris
I'm sure there exists fans of Dr Sam Harris. I'm joining them in applause for his recommendation, that of meditation... I think we should be allowed to appreciate leadership although my contention is that meditative directives are best served coming from an expert. Also if theres some kind of other meaning in the above quote? I would advise getting a phonics book or something .. a new team of editors.
Later on, these above findings will be referred to for further exploration in the movement.
Last edited by stargazzer; 07-05-2012 at 03:56 AM..
So you have not replied to a single thing in my post but instead have moved on to "part 2" of your diatribe. Nice.
Ok...Ive read the quotes you have made once again.
The talk darts back and forth inferring as conversations typically flow.. I feel there is adequate evidence your translation is abusing this property in the exchange including stretching it past wording actually used. Where its completely unavoidable to grant my claim, new wording apart from the talk is introduced.
Part 2 without even making mention of this issue is consistent with my claim.
Well...regardless we will have to agree to disagree. ( must say....if, "believers are more fearful and self deceived".... as he says in that exact quote...then what is the fear he is referring to?...and if its not death, then why is this alternate fear not explained? I think thats pretty fair. I gotta go for now and wanted to get back.
Last edited by stargazzer; 07-05-2012 at 06:15 AM..
The talk darts back and forth inferring a number of possibilities.
My point exactly.
The whole point I am making here is that you tried to distill the entire talk down into something simplistic. Then you attacked that straw man. I have shown in my posts, most of which you have not replied to, that there was a LOT more to his position than you are letting on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stargazzer
must say....if believers are more fearful as he says in that exact quote...then what is it, he is referring to?
Maybe if you actually read and replied to my posts you would already know because I covered this question, at length, in posts #26 #28 and #32.
It really is rude and bad form to ignore what people write, then ask questions that were already answered in the text you ignored.
Out of curiosity what IS your first language? Because much of the English you write is also very difficult to parse, and some of it is nonsensical entirely.
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