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Jdaelectro, please take this to heart. On this thread and in countless others, many of us non-thieists have tried to explain to you theists what we do and don't believe. If you want to discuss the logic of our point of view, please be so good as to actually start from it, not from some caricature. You don't have to agree with us, but the least you could do is listen.
-NoCapo
P.S. This is also the reason my posts tend to be very long and very wordy. I have learned that when discussing these things with theists, you have to be incredibly precise in your language.
The problem is that you are trying to reason with those that are irrational.
For a theist to listen to a viewpoint counter to theirs would indicate they might be questioning their views, and we certainly know that questioning is frowned upon to being declared an out right sin.
They are like the dog trained to an invisible fence, the dog learn to fear the shock administered by the collar it wears by going too close to the line. The theist shy's from anything close to 'questioning' and simply cannot listen out of fear it might be viewed as questioning, for like the dog has been programmed to react so.
The problem is that you are trying to reason with those that are irrational.
For a theist to listen to a viewpoint counter to theirs would indicate they might be questioning their views, and we certainly know that questioning is frowned upon to being declared an out right sin.
They are like the dog trained to an invisible fence, the dog learn to fear the shock administered by the collar it wears by going too close to the line. The theist shy's from anything close to 'questioning' and simply cannot listen out of fear it might be viewed as questioning, for like the dog has been programmed to react so.
Ah...the ol' "those who think differently than me are irrational but those who believe what I believe are free thinkers" argument...pretty convincing...and oh so tolerant. Haha
I don't even need rational, I would settle for honesty and civility. Trying to tell someone else what the "really" believe like you know better is just rude! If you are not willing to listen to the other party in a conversation, you should just keep quiet... the grownups are trying to have a conversation. If you are not willing to have an honest discussion, you are the equivalent of a telemarketer, a telephone pollster, a door to door encyclopedia salesman, or that annoying wrong number with a fax machine on the other end.
I mean, I don't think some of flipflops positions are necessarily logical, but he is nice about it and is willing to talk about it. I learn something about him and his beliefs and often about myself and my own beliefs.
Sorry I get so het up about it, but I have just been noticing it more and more. I am very interesting in discussing just about anything, and there are so many who will just not engage. Why even be here? I know you have a point, I did it too when I was a believer. I went to camp to learn how to do it better. Witnessing that behavior from the other side just seems so... icky.
Precise or blunt, we still seem to be constantly defining atheism, and it usually goes right over their heads, because the same posters keep repeating the same nonsense.
Ah...the ol' "those who think differently than me are irrational but those who believe what I believe are free thinkers" argument...pretty convincing...and oh so tolerant. Haha
Before it could be considered thinking, there must be a rational conclusion based on knowledge.
To merely regurgitate passages, often out of context, which does require the ability to memorize, is not thinking, but response by what was learned by rote.
How many times have you heard someone say (or said) "because it's in the bible" or similar.
No one takes ancient medical texts to their doctor and demand that 'cures' documented in ancient times be use to treat them, such as blood letting. Yet use a book that contains ancient knowledge and as outdated as old medical books, as an unquestionable source to base their life on.
Evidence, Schmividence . . .everything is based on belief . . .even your non-belief is a belief. It's all constructed through language and environmental influences.
I don't even need rational, I would settle for honesty and civility. Trying to tell someone else what the "really" believe like you know better is just rude!
Civility, usually met in kind with the civility I hear too frequently from theists, "your are going to hell" and all the other Pascal's Wager nonsense.
Honesty, I think you will find that atheists are inherently more honest than the average theist. Year of doing business in the bible belt I learned quickly that the word of a man that wears his religion on sleeve is frequently worthless.
And without rational, and discussion is pretty pointless, a scripted etiquette lesson at best.
Seems that it is typically the theist that is telling others what to think. I attempt to challenge others "to" think.
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