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Old 08-12-2012, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 12,886,879 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
I am curious what an atheist "believes" is the way we came into existance. Either it all started somewhere or it has always existed. I'm not sure if there is anything in between. A lot of atheists claim that all the "right" conditions came together somehow from nothing and poof the universe magically began. Now the atheists are waiting for their messiah, the scientist who makes this maraculous discovery.
Scientists involved in this sort of intense research in fact "believe" in various ideas and hypotheses, or better yet: "Theories", also known in their community as "fact", supportable "fact". (All within their current non-ego-driven hypothesis, until those are carefully reviewed, re-tested, etc., and then possibly altered or rejected and then replaced with the idea that rejected it.)

(This process is called Evolution of An Idea Or Concept, a process purposefully and completely alien to the IDTr* mindset)

And so, yes, we do indeed speculate that the right conditions came together in The BB. As for proof of that, those conditions do still exist in the universe as we speak. The HubbleScope and various other exploratory devices have shown this to be inarguably true, though of course you will argue them. Stars are still forming out of unconsolidated gaseous clouds, and are thusly observed.

You CANNOT deny the observable, VD. Oddly, you do, but still... you CAN'T.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
I am quite familiar thank you. But as you know it says nothing about how it got here to expand. It sounds like you are saying the universe had a beginning? So the next question is how it all began...
The current (there are several, btw...) theories of the BB do not require that we also provide for it's progenitors. You assiduously avoid the same question as regards not only your specific bored and lonely God, but His entire pre-lineage. What, "cat" got your tongue on that one, or is it too much for you to handle? And yet you happily throw it into the faces of those who would step outside of your cloistered little world-view box.

Simple question (NOTE: for future references, this will be Q#1, post No. 151: : Where did your God come from, and what's He made of? If you can't answer this here and now, then, by your line of "reasoning", He also does not exist.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
And so it is true of believers. We do not all believe in the "bible" or a "religion" We are all individual and have our own intepretations. We don't like to be painted with the same brush, as they say. At least I don't because I do not subscribe to those genres anyways.
Oh but you DO have at least some commonality of thoughts and beliefs, which are both intransigent and simultaneously laid down in the bible and a precious few other documents. Not to mention the predictable last-ditch cat-call of "Well, until you've had the same experiences I've had with my God!...."

Yep: so easily said, but let's not dismiss the power of intention and faith here. It holds a lot of myths together. Perhaps I should say "Well, but you haven't had the same talk with the aliens that I have. Yeah, I know... it was too bad my camera/tape recorder/witness friends were all unavailable, but you'll have to just believe me. After all, look at these odd burn marks on my head!" [actually from a trip&fall into a campfire, but it sure helps with the story!]

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
If you want to keep believing that there is no purpose than that is your belief. I cannot see life that way. That's all. And most of your rebuttal is pure speculation.

"And logically and demonstrably, in fact, that's exactly how we all got here. From bacteria [which mutate hourly to remain hard to treat...], to bats to bullfrogs to apes... to us"
Hmmm... wonder which intellectual orifice you pulled I]that one[/i] out of... Q#2: post No. 151: Where have you read [links please!] that atheists see and hold no purpose in life, or that the only valid purposes are those that you define for us [also known as the ones your religion has instructed you to re-parrot as the sole allowed purposes in life?] .

As for our real bio-origins, what do you make of the in-lab demos of evolutionary changes across species? Or have you also assiduously avoided that information as well? Perhaps that could be Q#3? Nahhh. I don't want to overload your search, read, learn and get back to us skills {}

{Note to file, after a tiny little bit of search and read: http://archaeology.mitrasites.com/hu...s-exhibit.html

Reading within this truly amazing site will open an interested person's mind... If that is, if it even wants to be opened...)

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
I'm sure there are even atheists who see a purpose to life.
Each and every one of us, in our ways. It just doesn't involve mandatory weekly supplication in front of a wooden icon {"Lest you go to hell! You better watch out! You WILL go to hell if I catch you disbelievin' around here! Careful! Or ELSE! I'm coming for you! Don't even think those sciencey {logical!} thoughts! Or Else. I'm warning You!" Blah Blah Blah Blah...}

Purposes like tithing 10% {or more! I'm warning you!} one's income to support the high life styles of the senior church "administration", or the serial publication of those kids' stupid color comix showing pet dinosaurs and lions licking lambs clean, and so on.

Nope: we atheists prefer to involve ourselves with such oddities as saving the earth's other creatures and plants from hominid-forced arrogance {mostly of religious origins, btw..} and thus extinction. Or the unveiling of the universe's vast store of secrets. Or in giving heart-felt help and spiritual succor to those in need but for whom God has truly let them down. Or, heaven forbid {"Hey! This is God again! I'm warning you! It's hell for you if you open that latest edition Astronomy book!" Don't!! Don't Doonnnn....}... reading & learning anything about discovery science!!!

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dba07 View Post
...isn't the more prudent course of action to simply doubt things that have no evidence to support them? Why must I disprove god, unicorns, or bigfoot? This isnt a practical use of my time. Show me the evidence and I'll consider it.

Oh and I've seen fossils. And I've never seen an old dude in the clouds with a long beard. So there's your evidence right there.
Oh you! Such a doubter! Such selective disillusionizing! (I jest, dba: your points are right on, but will, natch, be ignored, with a predictability of 99% CI.)

Yeah, let's all play Deny the Fossil Evidence, shall we? Lucy was just a God-plant after all!

http://anthropologynet.files.wordpre...ulls.jpg?w=450

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
It was pointed out in an Austin atheists' video that Creationists particularly deny primate evolution by saying that the fossils are either of apes or of humans. However, they cannot always agree on which is the ape and which is the human. That should be clear support for the case for transitionals being involved - in the one area that is must contentious in the evolution debate.

It is indeed something to ponder, Dads, and I wish you would ponder, research and check rather than present tired and debunked old canards like the 'No transitionals' claim.
Butttt... why on this earth would he want to ponder that, "ARE-Qeu"? It would inevitably lead to a hugely higher understanding of the obvious, which would bring on yet more of those {"I warned YOU!"} threats in his head, even despite the tinfoil hat he's taken to wearing.

http://fictionandeverythingelse.blog...infoil-hat.jpg

To ward off, you understand, "The Evil Atheist™ TEA! The true TEA Party unveiled!) psycho-evilized™ invaginations!!

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtieE View Post
1. There are 8.7 million species on the Earth
2. There are 6.5 million species of land animals on Earth
3. The minimum number of animals needed of each species to have a chance of surviving in the wild over a long period of time is on the average 4000.
4. 6.5 million times 4000 is 26 000 million animals on the Ark. Plus food and water.
5. Either there were 26 000 million animals on the Ark. Plus food and water.
6. Or there were less animals on the Ark but then you would need evolution to produce the rest of the species.
7. What is it?

1. There were 8 people on the Ark.
2. The breeding population for humans to be able to repopulate the Earth is between 80 and 160 depending on the circumstances.
3. How did we get to six billion if the Ark scenario doesn't work and evolution is wrong?

Just a thought.
Actually, ArtieE, respectfully, it's even better (or for defensive but factually "dense" theists, worse..) than that, since a conservative estimate on the total number of current plus all the now-extinct species... is probably well over 100+M. As well, some dedicated scientists have more recently determined that there may well be 100+ M species currently on this spaceship Earth! Let's say a conservative 30+M at least shall we?

Meaning: Ark-wise, we have to include all those sp. that have come and gone, {dinos, etc.} but according to The Noah Nonsense, "They be No Damned Evolvin' allowed 'roun'heah!" signage on the boat's various (3? Only 3?) levels. Easily seen, so no excuses!
___________________________________

Hey! No cross-species interplay, you guys down in the rodent section! Stay behind those yellow lines I so carefully painted there! Which means YOU! (Yes, YOU 10,000 and rapidly multiplying LITTLE SQUIGGLING SQUEAKERS OVER IN THE CORNER UNDER THE HUGE PILE OF ELEPHANT DUNG. 1000 ELEPHANTS LEAVE A LOT OF"STUFF!")
___________________________________

And excluding such things as bacteria or viri, the numbers of mobile big and upright species that would be necessary to be successful upon demarcation from that rapidly sinking leaky old tub would have to be be in the order of at least 5000 - 10,000 of each species, given sexual reproduction requirements (being able to resist predation or disease or natural disasters; volcanoes, earthqaukes, forest fires, and so on.

Example? j Here's just one of the thousands, incl. Bengal tigers, polar bears, lemurs, monkeys, the great apes, various birds, fish, sharks, whales, small rodents, and so on. Not to mention the threatened trees and shrubs and flowers! And SO ON! (btw, all of them, down to each and every "kind", were all killed off in a global inundation. No survivors AT ALL!)

The Cheetah, my personal favorite and which is in fact one of my passionately pursued atheistic purposes, is now in serious danger, even though it's right in it's own habitat, where it evolved to fit a precise niche {not up on Ararat in the middle of winter, @ the plant-less and prey-less 13,000 foot level! <Sigh>: such incredible technical stupidity on the part of Noah supporters to ignore these requirements...}

And, heavens be, there's actually from 9,000 to 12,000 of them left, and yet they are in serious jeapardy. So OK, OK... let's put about 15,000 of them onto the Ark, shall we? Ditto for all those others. WOW! Gets awfully crowded... But still, Noah had lotsa freeze-dried food (Thx, Eusebius, for that comic relief option!)

So this puts the required number of animals, and plants (we can't hardly forget the plants, now can we?) at.. oh heavens... tens of thousands of millions of organisms. On that one "boat". Best build it A LOT BIGGER, Noah old chep. Get up offa your arthritic joints and start sawing {"Or, it's off to hell with you!"} Yeah OK, you can get help from your two sons.

Phunny stuff, that there are those here who wholeheartedly believe in this crap! ("Well, you haven't had the same personal GodTalk that I have!")

The endless denials of all the existing and newly discovered facts around us; the unsupported re-definitions of various things like Evolution (Well...uhmmm.. So... why can't Evolution explain the Big Bang then? Nyah nyah! Or: How'd it all come from nothing, just like God's version did. [Oh oooopss.... didn't mean to have that thought {"Oh Yeah? I warned YOU, didn't I! Now you're really going to hell, unless you tithe me extra this next weekend! I warn YOU!"}

I admit: I gotta give you Christians some credit for your seeming bottomless stamina in the face of relentless truths and facts and better arguments and logic and all of us who have converted to truth-seeking!!

It must be a hard life: no self-determined purposes, nothing but sputtered God worship and fear-driven Adherence to the Mandates. It's either that or :{"It's off to hell! I DID warn you, after all!"}

Me? Purposeless me? I prefer to perhaps go target shooting {@ 500 - 800 m no less!] with my friends, or to read up on the latest research efforts to get to "The Bigger Answers" Oh and a big [Yes to the Mars Rover, aptly named Curiosity!]. Always, we advance towards the closest we can get The Big Truth!

Or to raise and then send money to help the (my?) cheetahs! Saved from religious missionary cretins who have ruined Africa since Day One of their arrival!
_______________________

*IDTr: Intransigent Dogmo-Theist

Last edited by rifleman; 08-12-2012 at 12:11 PM..
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Old 08-13-2012, 07:23 AM
 
707 posts, read 684,821 times
Reputation: 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Scientists involved in this sort of intense research in fact "believe" in various ideas and hypotheses, or better yet: "Theories", also known in their community as "fact", supportable "fact". (All within their current non-ego-driven hypothesis, until those are carefully reviewed, re-tested, etc., and then possibly altered or rejected and then replaced with the idea that rejected it.)

(This process is called Evolution of An Idea Or Concept, a process purposefully and completely alien to the IDTr* mindset)

And so, yes, we do indeed speculate that the right conditions came together in The BB. As for proof of that, those conditions do still exist in the universe as we speak. The HubbleScope and various other exploratory devices have shown this to be inarguably true, though of course you will argue them. Stars are still forming out of unconsolidated gaseous clouds, and are thusly observed.

You CANNOT deny the observable, VD. Oddly, you do, but still... you CAN'T.



The current (there are several, btw...) theories of the BB do not require that we also provide for it's progenitors. You assiduously avoid the same question as regards not only your specific bored and lonely God, but His entire pre-lineage. What, "cat" got your tongue on that one, or is it too much for you to handle? And yet you happily throw it into the faces of those who would step outside of your cloistered little world-view box.

Simple question (NOTE: for future references, this will be Q#1, post No. 151: : Where did your God come from, and what's He made of? If you can't answer this here and now, then, by your line of "reasoning", He also does not exist.



Oh but you DO have at least some commonality of thoughts and beliefs, which are both intransigent and simultaneously laid down in the bible and a precious few other documents. Not to mention the predictable last-ditch cat-call of "Well, until you've had the same experiences I've had with my God!...."

Yep: so easily said, but let's not dismiss the power of intention and faith here. It holds a lot of myths together. Perhaps I should say "Well, but you haven't had the same talk with the aliens that I have. Yeah, I know... it was too bad my camera/tape recorder/witness friends were all unavailable, but you'll have to just believe me. After all, look at these odd burn marks on my head!" [actually from a trip&fall into a campfire, but it sure helps with the story!]



Hmmm... wonder which intellectual orifice you pulled I]that one[/i] out of... Q#2: post No. 151: Where have you read [links please!] that atheists see and hold no purpose in life, or that the only valid purposes are those that you define for us [also known as the ones your religion has instructed you to re-parrot as the sole allowed purposes in life?] .

As for our real bio-origins, what do you make of the in-lab demos of evolutionary changes across species? Or have you also assiduously avoided that information as well? Perhaps that could be Q#3? Nahhh. I don't want to overload your search, read, learn and get back to us skills {}

{Note to file, after a tiny little bit of search and read: http://archaeology.mitrasites.com/hu...s-exhibit.html

Reading within this truly amazing site will open an interested person's mind... If that is, if it even wants to be opened...)



Each and every one of us, in our ways. It just doesn't involve mandatory weekly supplication in front of a wooden icon {"Lest you go to hell! You better watch out! You WILL go to hell if I catch you disbelievin' around here! Careful! Or ELSE! I'm coming for you! Don't even think those sciencey {logical!} thoughts! Or Else. I'm warning You!" Blah Blah Blah Blah...}

Purposes like tithing 10% {or more! I'm warning you!} one's income to support the high life styles of the senior church "administration", or the serial publication of those kids' stupid color comix showing pet dinosaurs and lions licking lambs clean, and so on.

Nope: we atheists prefer to involve ourselves with such oddities as saving the earth's other creatures and plants from hominid-forced arrogance {mostly of religious origins, btw..} and thus extinction. Or the unveiling of the universe's vast store of secrets. Or in giving heart-felt help and spiritual succor to those in need but for whom God has truly let them down. Or, heaven forbid {"Hey! This is God again! I'm warning you! It's hell for you if you open that latest edition Astronomy book!" Don't!! Don't Doonnnn....}... reading & learning anything about discovery science!!!



Oh you! Such a doubter! Such selective disillusionizing! (I jest, dba: your points are right on, but will, natch, be ignored, with a predictability of 99% CI.)

Yeah, let's all play Deny the Fossil Evidence, shall we? Lucy was just a God-plant after all!

http://anthropologynet.files.wordpre...ulls.jpg?w=450



Butttt... why on this earth would he want to ponder that, "ARE-Qeu"? It would inevitably lead to a hugely higher understanding of the obvious, which would bring on yet more of those {"I warned YOU!"} threats in his head, even despite the tinfoil hat he's taken to wearing.

http://fictionandeverythingelse.blog...infoil-hat.jpg

To ward off, you understand, "The Evil Atheistâ„¢ TEA! The true TEA Party unveiled!) psycho-evilizedâ„¢ invaginations!!



Actually, ArtieE, respectfully, it's even better (or for defensive but factually "dense" theists, worse..) than that, since a conservative estimate on the total number of current plus all the now-extinct species... is probably well over 100+M. As well, some dedicated scientists have more recently determined that there may well be 100+ M species currently on this spaceship Earth! Let's say a conservative 30+M at least shall we?

Meaning: Ark-wise, we have to include all those sp. that have come and gone, {dinos, etc.} but according to The Noah Nonsense, "They be No Damned Evolvin' allowed 'roun'heah!" signage on the boat's various (3? Only 3?) levels. Easily seen, so no excuses!
___________________________________

Hey! No cross-species interplay, you guys down in the rodent section! Stay behind those yellow lines I so carefully painted there! Which means YOU! (Yes, YOU 10,000 and rapidly multiplying LITTLE SQUIGGLING SQUEAKERS OVER IN THE CORNER UNDER THE HUGE PILE OF ELEPHANT DUNG. 1000 ELEPHANTS LEAVE A LOT OF"STUFF!")
___________________________________

And excluding such things as bacteria or viri, the numbers of mobile big and upright species that would be necessary to be successful upon demarcation from that rapidly sinking leaky old tub would have to be be in the order of at least 5000 - 10,000 of each species, given sexual reproduction requirements (being able to resist predation or disease or natural disasters; volcanoes, earthqaukes, forest fires, and so on.

Example? j Here's just one of the thousands, incl. Bengal tigers, polar bears, lemurs, monkeys, the great apes, various birds, fish, sharks, whales, small rodents, and so on. Not to mention the threatened trees and shrubs and flowers! And SO ON! (btw, all of them, down to each and every "kind", were all killed off in a global inundation. No survivors AT ALL!)

The Cheetah, my personal favorite and which is in fact one of my passionately pursued atheistic purposes, is now in serious danger, even though it's right in it's own habitat, where it evolved to fit a precise niche {not up on Ararat in the middle of winter, @ the plant-less and prey-less 13,000 foot level! <Sigh>: such incredible technical stupidity on the part of Noah supporters to ignore these requirements...}

And, heavens be, there's actually from 9,000 to 12,000 of them left, and yet they are in serious jeapardy. So OK, OK... let's put about 15,000 of them onto the Ark, shall we? Ditto for all those others. WOW! Gets awfully crowded... But still, Noah had lotsa freeze-dried food (Thx, Eusebius, for that comic relief option!)

So this puts the required number of animals, and plants (we can't hardly forget the plants, now can we?) at.. oh heavens... tens of thousands of millions of organisms. On that one "boat". Best build it A LOT BIGGER, Noah old chep. Get up offa your arthritic joints and start sawing {"Or, it's off to hell with you!"} Yeah OK, you can get help from your two sons.

Phunny stuff, that there are those here who wholeheartedly believe in this crap! ("Well, you haven't had the same personal GodTalk that I have!")

The endless denials of all the existing and newly discovered facts around us; the unsupported re-definitions of various things like Evolution (Well...uhmmm.. So... why can't Evolution explain the Big Bang then? Nyah nyah! Or: How'd it all come from nothing, just like God's version did. [Oh oooopss.... didn't mean to have that thought {"Oh Yeah? I warned YOU, didn't I! Now you're really going to hell, unless you tithe me extra this next weekend! I warn YOU!"}

I admit: I gotta give you Christians some credit for your seeming bottomless stamina in the face of relentless truths and facts and better arguments and logic and all of us who have converted to truth-seeking!!

It must be a hard life: no self-determined purposes, nothing but sputtered God worship and fear-driven Adherence to the Mandates. It's either that or :{"It's off to hell! I DID warn you, after all!"}

Me? Purposeless me? I prefer to perhaps go target shooting {@ 500 - 800 m no less!] with my friends, or to read up on the latest research efforts to get to "The Bigger Answers" Oh and a big [Yes to the Mars Rover, aptly named Curiosity!]. Always, we advance towards the closest we can get The Big Truth!

Or to raise and then send money to help the (my?) cheetahs! Saved from religious missionary cretins who have ruined Africa since Day One of their arrival!
_______________________

*IDTr: Intransigent Dogmo-Theist
Bottom line is there is no fossil evidence to support the claim we evolved into humans from a single celled organism. The only evidence is that the single celled organism has evolved into a "better" single celled organism. And that humans are a separate specie just as all species are and have evolved within their own kind. It has nothing to do with worshipping in front of a pice of wood or not.
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Old 08-13-2012, 07:54 AM
 
7,801 posts, read 6,351,097 times
Reputation: 2988
I see you are avoiding the people who asked you what you meant by "kind to kind" fossils. Not surprising as if you mean what I think you mean, avoiding questions on it is a good idea. It is the kind of tactic I have learned to expect from you.

However to answer what you shifted to while avoiding the other posts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
Bottom line is there is no fossil evidence to support the claim we evolved into humans from a single celled organism.
There actually is a lot of evidence for this. Molecular and Fossil. To understand this however one must understand how "evidence" works in Science. Prediction is a massive, massive part of science. Many predictions have been made based on the theory of Evolution, the theory that links all animals to single celled common ancestry, and those predictions have been shown true. Whether it be massive predictions made on our genetic lineage with other apes, or between other animals such as hippos and whales, they have always been held out. Examples abound if you want them.

Now either the Theory of Evolution is entirely true which explains these predictions, or scientists are suffering from an abundance of luck that would make you winning your state lottery 10 times in a row look statistically common place and mundane.
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:24 AM
 
434 posts, read 341,296 times
Reputation: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
Bottom line is there is no fossil evidence to support the claim we evolved into humans from a single celled organism.
Bottom line is that is false, no matter how many times you fold your arms and look away.
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:42 AM
 
Location: Richardson, TX
8,734 posts, read 13,781,039 times
Reputation: 3807
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
Bottom line is that is false, no matter how many times you fold your arms and look away.
You've got to remember, no matter the evidence, it must be denied. That is just how it is.
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:43 AM
 
434 posts, read 341,296 times
Reputation: 95
True. *sigh*
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:48 AM
 
Location: Richardson, TX
8,734 posts, read 13,781,039 times
Reputation: 3807
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
True. *sigh*
IIRC Henry Morris stated something to that effect, that any evidence, whether real or contrived, must be dismissed... It just didn't matter.
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Old 08-13-2012, 12:23 PM
 
707 posts, read 684,821 times
Reputation: 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
I see you are avoiding the people who asked you what you meant by "kind to kind" fossils. Not surprising as if you mean what I think you mean, avoiding questions on it is a good idea. It is the kind of tactic I have learned to expect from you.

However to answer what you shifted to while avoiding the other posts:



There actually is a lot of evidence for this. Molecular and Fossil. To understand this however one must understand how "evidence" works in Science. Prediction is a massive, massive part of science. Many predictions have been made based on the theory of Evolution, the theory that links all animals to single celled common ancestry, and those predictions have been shown true. Whether it be massive predictions made on our genetic lineage with other apes, or between other animals such as hippos and whales, they have always been held out. Examples abound if you want them.

Now either the Theory of Evolution is entirely true which explains these predictions, or scientists are suffering from an abundance of luck that would make you winning your state lottery 10 times in a row look statistically common place and mundane.
Although many say there is evidence of this type no one is able to produce it. Talk about believing in things that aren't there.
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Old 08-13-2012, 11:36 PM
 
5,906 posts, read 5,727,580 times
Reputation: 4570
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
Although many say there is evidence of this type no one is able to produce it. Talk about believing in things that aren't there.
nsf.gov - National Science Foundation (NSF) News - Biologists Replicate Key Evolutionary Step in Life on Earth - US National Science Foundation (NSF)
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Old 08-14-2012, 12:45 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
33,511 posts, read 37,034,373 times
Reputation: 13978
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
Although many say there is evidence of this type no one is able to produce it. Talk about believing in things that aren't there.
Actually you religious are the ones that believe in impossible things without evidence of any kind....There is lots of evidence for evolution, but none whatsoever for the various religious myths, no matter how loudly or how many times you parrot your misinformation....
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