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You don't understand hell. God does not send anyone there we send ourselves. Mostly from standing back saying----it doesn't involve me so I don't care if they are hurt. We can help poor and disabled people you know. That is why were were put here. Help those who are weaker than us. I think Buddhism agrees with this.
I don't think any of understand that vision of hell. I have sometimes seen it hinted that helping your fellow man may please God and so entitle one to a ticket into heaven (as mysteriously difficult to obtain as a London Olympics ticket) but the main arbiter so far as i have seen it is Faith in God's existence and in Jesus as his only begotten son (whatever that actually means - see what I mean by mysteriously difficult?) and the fact of his resurrection. That is what the Bible teaches, not your helping disabled people onto buses.
If you have invented your own Hell (and presumably heaven) with a turnstile operated by credits for helping cripples across the road or handing take-aways to pavement - dwellers, then I rather like it. Much better than the one where St Peter bars us the pearly gates because we didn't 'Believe'. In which case as you say, we send ourselves to hell.
So if Allah turns out to be the true god, then Christians can't complain if they send themselves to hell for refusing to believe in Him. Can they?
I don't think any of understand that vision of hell. I have sometimes seen it hinted that helping your fellow man may please God and so entitle one to a ticket into heaven (as mysteriously difficult to obtain as a London Olympics ticket) but the main arbiter so far as i have seen it is Faith in God's existence and in Jesus as his only begotten son (whatever that actually means - see what I mean by mysteriously difficult?) and the fact of his resurrection. That is what the Bible teaches, not your helping disabled people onto buses.
If you have invented your own Hell (and presumably heaven) with a turnstile operated by credits for helping cripples across the road or handing take-aways to pavement - dwellers, then I rather like it. Much better than the one where St Peter bars us the pearly gates because we didn't 'Believe'. In which case as you say, we send ourselves to hell.
So if Allah turns out to be the true god, then Christians can't complain if they send themselves to hell for refusing to believe in Him. Can they?
God won't send anyone to hell if they truly believe in another religion and think it is the right one. It's how one lives. If they are true to their religion and have not rejected the Christian God---and that happens---then they will probably get into heaven if they live a good life. Of course, no one will know who goes to heaven or not since that is not to be known until we are there.
UMMMM, I don't know what Allah would do. I don't know much about that religion and I have heard even when Muslims die they will never get to see Allah or if they go to a heaven like we think of it.
the freedom you thought you described, however, is not effective against what we are talking about. 'Free will' is essentially a catch-all phrase that does not really serve the purpose hoped for.
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We are subject to our circumstances but people can change them, we see that all the time. Even if we do not have the power to change our surroundings we are still in charge on how we react to them. We have free will---a gift from God---it's our choice how we behave.
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Not sure the second paragraph. Horrible immoral system? Depends on what country you are born into. We are living in luxury in our country compared to others. I don't think God is immoral to give us free will if that is what you are referring to. We live in a fallen world through free will of others but we can still rise above it.
Your God is immoral for torturing people for eternity, for any reason. Someone is immoral for not objecting to such an idea.
The rest about free will is both wrong, and non sequitur. If one is reacting to horrible circumstances which they cannot change, how can they be considered the source of that outrage and judged to be ungrateful? It's just ridiculous. As I said, the 'free will' card is brought out to squelch arguments against God's immoral system when rational discussion cannot be achieved. The presence of the world being 'fallen' is God's fault to begin with, for making such a result the hinge upon which Adam and Eve's eating of the apple rested [which, we may note, was never mentioned until after it was already too late]. They did not know good from evil, but were judged as if they did; and, all their offspring, who had zero to do with their innocent mistake, were also penalized. So the entirety of this 'fallen' world is yet another symptom of God's immorality. We are forced to live in a fallen world, for someone else's mistake. Then blamed when we lament our pain. That makes moral sense how?
the freedom you thought you described, however, is not effective against what we are talking about. 'Free will' is essentially a catch-all phrase that does not really serve the purpose hoped for.
Your God is immoral for torturing people for eternity, for any reason. Someone is immoral for not objecting to such an idea.
The rest about free will is both wrong, and non sequitur.
Then I don't know what you mean by free will. I feel I have it, you don't?
As I said God does not send people to hell for eternity. Hell is separation from God. Many will chose not to be with God----their choice and God won't make them be with Him if they don't want to be with Him.
You may get a better view of God if you realize he loves you and only wants the best for you.
Then I don't know what you mean by free will. I feel I have it, you don't?
As I said God does not send people to hell for eternity. Hell is separation from God. Many will chose not to be with God----their choice and God won't make them be with Him if they don't want to be with Him.
You may get a better view of God if you realize he loves you and only wants the best for you.
This 'love' idea is the same as the 'free will/choice' one; a nice word to cover something worse and which is not really explored in detail. it just sounds nice.
God does not love you if he sends you to Hell.
Real love = forgiveness of everything and anything. Humans do it. I guess God cannot.
I may get a better view? You may get a worse view if you actually thought about it for a second.
And I will point out for sake of discussion: the presence of Hell removes the idea of free will in any case. Since one choice leads to eternal/temporary/however-you-want-to-excuse-it torture, the balance is already tipped in the other direction for anyone making a conscious choice; in other words it removes the free' from 'free will'. You cannot tell someone one 'Love me or I'll shoot this dog' and expect their choice to be 'free'.
And btw, 'shoot this dog' is merely a facetious reference to an old National Lampoon joke; God is actually saying 'or I'll shoot you'.
Last edited by Heathen Hammer; 08-01-2012 at 02:16 AM..
Still with the "we" thing I see. You do like to pretend to speak for more people than just yourself huh? Anyway I wish you well in that hope. My experience is they are more numerous than you would think or want to think by quite a long way.
A true example of God using free will with humans, would be if his presence were known to us, but choosing to not be involved with him, results in a neutral, desirable afterlife instead of eternal damnation. Your decision to love him, or not, would then be totally free, and based on a personal desire rather than fear of a painful outcome. For God to inflict something, anything even if we discount the idea of torture, on you for not 'loving' him is the same thing experienced by people who find they have a stalker. And nobody in their right mind thinks a stalker is justified in following and causing harm to someone who does not love them...
Yet, we see some people are fine with God doing it, to everyone.
God won't send anyone to hell if they truly believe in another religion and think it is the right one. It's how one lives. If they are true to their religion and have not rejected the Christian God---and that happens---then they will probably get into heaven if they live a good life. Of course, no one will know who goes to heaven or not since that is not to be known until we are there.
Got a few questions there.
(1) Doesn't believing in Allah or Shiva or Buddha automatically come under the heading of 'rejecting the Christian God'?
(2) Or do you suggest that believing truly in your religion, even if it isn't the Christian one, is going to excuse you from Hell?
(3) If so, do I take it that truly NOT believing in any religion nevertheless will put us in hell (our own fault, of course) no matter how honestly and truly we came to that conclusion? That it is just Faith in a religion of pretty much any kind that will get us into heaven and hell is just reserved for people with no religious belief?
If so, you have truly reinvented heaven and hell doctrine and created your own new religion.
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UMMMM, I don't know what Allah would do. I don't know much about that religion and I have heard even when Muslims die they will never get to see Allah or if they go to a heaven like we think of it.
As I understand it, if you believe in a god who is not what the mullahs would recognize as Allah, then you are an unbeliever and will be going to hell as surely as Christianity teaches that those who believe in false gods will be on the end of some serious no -good.
Got a few more. This isn't 'proving you wrong' dear lady, rather getting you (since you have obviously reasoned your way to where you now are) to reason a bit further, since where you are really doesn't seem to stack up.
"God does not send people to hell for eternity." Then hell is just a temporary punishment? (or did you mean hell is eternal but we, not God, send ourselves there?)
"Hell is separation from God. Many will chose not to be with God----their choice and God won't make them be with Him if they don't want to be with Him."
Fair enough. The question is do we care? I know that the curious might regret being excluded from all manner of knowledge or pleasure through separation from God (I never knew that He approved so much of knowledge and pleasure) but I can frankly live with that if it is no worse than the life I have now.
If it is significantly worse than what I have now then it is a punishment for not believing in God (whatever one) and that means hell by any other name. 'Separation' is simply the mechanism and trying to make it sound nicer than hell is just a bit of a PR trick.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 08-01-2012 at 06:19 AM..
Reason: (...or did you mean...)
God won't send anyone to hell if they truly believe in another religion and think it is the right one. It's how one lives. If they are true to their religion and have not rejected the Christian God---and that happens---then they will probably get into heaven if they live a good life.
Sounds like someone's preaching the idea of salvation through works.
And since I genuinely believe there's nothing there to reject I guess I fit into this category as well, so I'm safe. But by telling me about god, you're jeopardizing my chances of getting into heaven. Who's side are you really on in this fight?
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