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I agree, but some have vested interests in their belief systems. Many atheists have a lot to lose if there is a God. So they rail against the idea of a God in a vain hope of being right. I wish them the best of luck.
Nope. My vanity as you label it is in knowing that on this one I am more than right. I am in no way afraid of your imagined God. Even if He were out there, all alone and afraid to come visit with me to discuss why He did things in such a Vastly Fricked Up way, He has made such an impressive list of errors that I can imagine why He's so ashamed now!
And of course, according to your messed up philosophy, He has predetermined exactly what each and every one of us will and has achieved, thought of done, every disease we have had to deal with, every dingle little sub-atomic "blip" in our particle-physics existence.
So He obviously planned for me to be exactly who I am, as a foil for the more arrogant and assumptive Christians out there who think they only have to pout, smirk and denounce everything we trained logisticians say, and they'll therefore be, gratis, granted an automatic free pass into Heaven. Like THAT's gonna happen.
You do know, Mr5150, it's a special sin to threaten your fellow men, especially with outright lies, yes? You are more than guilty here, so be prepared to make the necessary amends, OK? I will try to put in a good word for you, but you have been pretty hard-line in your various mis-representations over these many months... He may not be in a good mood...
Well, uhhh... so sorry, old friends. T'ain't at all how He's now told me it will be working up there! Fact is He's hired me as a stand-up comic you'll have to endure each night. Hey; I'll be here all ni.... well... forever! Tell your friends!
"So! Did you hear the one about all the Christians who said bad things about atheists?" Sorry: you'll just have to wait for the punch line. It's at the club called "Holy Hell!"
Actually PI is a pretty divine number. It's never ending, as far as we know. Kind of amazing.
So you believe that G-d picked this number pi to be the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter because he wanted a number that was never ending? What I'm driving at is that earlier you said "It's the underlying tenets, laws, parameters and such of the universe that indicate design." One of these parameters is pi. And if pi indicates design it must have been hand-picked by G-d to be the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter simply because if he had picked another number it would have resulted in a different design and he picked pi because he wanted this design. Right? The difference between your approach and an atheists approach seems to be that you believe G-d picked pi and every other underlying tenets, laws, parameters and such of the universe on purpose while an atheist thinks that pi simply is what it is and there's no evidence and no necessity for a deity to have picked that particular number or any other tenet, law or parameter.
So you believe that G-d picked this number pi to be the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter because he wanted a number that was never ending? What I'm driving at is that earlier you said "It's the underlying tenets, laws, parameters and such of the universe that indicate design." One of these parameters is pi. And if pi indicates design it must have been hand-picked by G-d to be the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter simply because if he had picked another number it would have resulted in a different design and he picked pi because he wanted this design. Right? The difference between your approach and an atheists approach seems to be that you believe G-d picked pi and every other underlying tenets, laws, parameters and such of the universe on purpose while an atheist thinks that pi simply is what it is and there's no evidence and no necessity for a deity to have picked that particular number or any other tenet, law or parameter.
I'm uncomfortable with your phraseology of "god picked". It sounds like someone selecting bath towels from BB&B. The design of the universe is just a bit more complicated than that, IMO. And I have no idea how G-d actually did it, of course. Why would you ever think I would know something that is obviously unknowable, in this life at least?
Yes I know, atheists believe the math/numbers/laws/parameters/tenets just picked themselves. And they all happen to work so well - for us! How......fortunate, yes?
Theists don't believe we're here because of a lucky draw. Or that nature created itself and that all it's laws just appeared, as is, (happily for us) - perchance aligned to near perfection so as to allow our presence. As I've said before, I don't have enough faith to believe in such fantastical tales.
I dont believe this universe, and our very existence, is merely a statistical quirk, a "black swan" if you will. I sense there is more to our lives than just chemical reactions and electrical impulses. I don't know it. Can't prove it. But my gut tells me there is more to life. And my gut is more often correct than not.
Yes I know, atheists believe the math/numbers/laws/parameters/tenets just picked themselves. And they all happen to work so well - for us! How......fortunate, yes?
Hmmm...
Seems to me that humans created math to place the physical world into a comprehensible framework. Outside of human cognition the universe doesn't need or use math to do anything but rather humans need math to understand what the universe is doing.
I'm uncomfortable with your phraseology of "god picked". It sounds like someone selecting bath towels from BB&B. The design of the universe is just a bit more complicated than that, IMO. And I have no idea how G-d actually did it, of course. Why would you ever think I would know something that is obviously unknowable, in this life at least?
I understand. You "know" that the universe was designed simply because it appears to you to be designed the only problem is that you have no evidence or even a single clue as to how.
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Yes I know, atheists believe the math/numbers/laws/parameters/tenets just picked themselves. And they all happen to work so well - for us! How......fortunate, yes?
By "us" I take it you mean humans? The arrogance and narcissism of believers never seizes to amaze me. We are so young in the history of the Earth that we don't even deserve to be mentioned in such a context. The life forms "they all happen to work so well for" are cyanobacteria, the Nautilus or the jellyfish. Oldest living things on earth Even the crocodile is 55 million years old. I bet all the crocodiles are amazed how well G-d has made everything work so well for them that they could survive for 55 million years.
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Theists don't believe we're here because of a lucky draw. Or that nature created itself and that all it's laws just appeared, as is, (happily for us) - perchance aligned to near perfection so as to allow our presence.
You actually believe that G-d created the universe so as to allow your presence do you? Is there a limit to how high an opinion one can have about oneself?
The number PI is a mathematical concept that does not exist in the real world.
According to Einstein's theory of General Relativity, which has been verified many times, there is no such thing as a straight line or a perfect circle.
So there. Take a slice of your so-called PI and eat it with ice cream.
I understand. You "know" that the universe was designed simply because it appears to you to be designed the only problem is that you have no evidence or even a single clue as to how.
Well. Sorta kinda. I mean there,is evidence, f course, it's just circumstantial - the bible, the near impossibly tight dimensions required for life to be possible, etc. You reject it all on the basis of happy good fortune. We not only won the lottery, we won all the lotteries that have ever existed! Good thing we bought all those tickets!
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Originally Posted by ArtieE
By "us" I take it you mean humans? The arrogance and narcissism of believers never seizes to amaze me. We are so young in the history of the Earth that we don't even deserve to be mentioned in such a context. The life forms "they all happen to work so well for" are cyanobacteria, the Nautilus or the jellyfish. Oldest living things on earth Even the crocodile is 55 million years old. I bet all the crocodiles are amazed how well G-d has made everything work so well for them that they could survive for 55 million years.
)
An excellent point about the crocodiles. Thanks for bringing it up. What are they and all dem other critters still stuck in the mud, literally in some cases, while we have gone from dinosaur bait to king of the hill in a relative split second? I mean 55 million years and still no relatives that can count to ten or say their names? Isnt it time to stop eating dead sh** and upgrade the diet, mr croc? I mean to survive is one thing, to actually live a live of complexity, consciousness and self awareness is another, don't ya think? Again, we drew the lucky straw, somehow, and quickly surpassed species that have existed far longer than us. Why why why are we so lucky, again and again and again, artster?
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Originally Posted by ArtieE
You actually believe that G-d created the universe so as to allow your presence do you? Is there a limit to how high an opinion one can have about oneself?
You don't really suppose that I'm suggesting that do you? That would be silly of course. I think mankind is special. Whether we are utterly unique in the universe, well, there is no proof to the contrary, and you are all about provable, observable replicable FACTS, right? Therefore we can safely say we are the unique species that is known to exist at this level of intelligence. Damn, we're awesome! Lol
You "know" that the universe was designed simply because it appears to you to be designed the only problem is that you have no evidence or even a single clue as to how.
Ah, but therein lies the problem. Just a casual look at our very own solar system exhibits little in the way of design and certainly nothing that would indicate the much touted irreducible complexity i read so much about.
By the way, that was the original point of the thread - but I got distracted and forgot to come back and tend to it.
Soooo...
If the universe was designed, especially if that design was to accomplish intelligent life, what godly (pun intended) purpose do irregularly spaced and sized planets each with a seemingly random number of orbiting objects contribute to the viability of life on earth?
Where is the irreducible complexity? Send Mars hurtling into the Sun and what happens of Earth beside a really cool cosmic collision?
What would happen to life on earth if Saturn was 3 billion km from earth instead of 1.2 billion km? Not much.
If anything our solar system serves as ample evidence of randomness. Jupiter's massive size is solely the result of having more solar material colliding with it which in turn gave it greater gravitational force to gather in even more material to the point that it has 60 known moons.
We could go on. What is the purpose of the all the irreducible complexity of the Kepler and where did all that junk come from? The designer isn't a very tidy workman.
And last but not least, why on earth (there goes those puns again) is the our solar system, whose placement was so critical to the rise in human life sitting on a remote edge of the galaxy? Where does that fit into the design and its irreducible complexity.
Ah, but therein lies the problem. Just a casual look at our very own solar system exhibits little in the way of design and certainly nothing that would indicate the much touted irreducible complexity i read so much about.
By the way, that was the original point of the thread - but I got distracted and forgot to come back and tend to it.
Soooo...
If the universe was designed, especially if that design was to accomplish intelligent life, what godly (pun intended) purpose do irregularly spaced and sized planets each with a seemingly random number of orbiting objects contribute to the viability of life on earth?
Where is the irreducible complexity? Send Mars hurtling into the Sun and what happens of Earth beside a really cool cosmic collision?
What would happen to life on earth if Saturn was 3 billion km from earth instead of 1.2 billion km? Not much.
If anything our solar system serves as ample evidence of randomness. Jupiter's massive size is solely the result of having more solar material colliding with it which in turn gave it greater gravitational force to gather in even more material to the point that it has 60 known moons.
We could go on. What is the purpose of the all the irreducible complexity of the Kepler and where did all that junk come from? The designer isn't a very tidy workman.
And last but not least, why on earth (there goes those puns again) is the our solar system, whose placement was so critical to the rise in human life sitting on a remote edge of the galaxy? Where does that fit into the design and its irreducible complexity.
So you'd expect in a godly designed universe it would look like a well organized closet with everything in its right place? All lined up by size or color or material or something, resembling a well tended garden or a properly managed stock portfolio? really?
Well you are putting your own expectations on something that is far beyond your understanding. And for all you know the universe is well organized. At least for us. Weve had billions of years of relative calm in which time the earths atmosphere has matured to support our large population. The moon just happens to be in the right place and size to permit the tides, key to sustainable life. Jupiter keeps away lots of nasty rocks, much to our good fortune. The earth is in an optimal location for viewing the rest of the universe. A different place and we would not be able to study the vastness or observe much beyond our immediate neighborhood. We don't face any near term danger of being sucked into a black hole or exterminated by a super nova. Our sun is stable and we are the exact right distance from it for a comfortable climate. Our rotation allows the entire earth to be live able, basically, because all sides receive heat and light from the sun (excepting I guess the polar caps).
Regardless, just because there is randomness in the universe, it does not mean there is no order, or no intention in its design. Baseball is very well ordered, but randomness is a key part of the game.
I really don't get why people think, well, if I were in charge, I would do such a better job than you know who. maybe it's a harder job than you give credit, and/or his workings are far, far, far beyond anything you could remotely comprehend.
Well, at the risk of sounding like a broken acetate record, yes, that is one of the better arguments for a God -designed solar - system. On the other hand, there was the need for more than one extinction to give mammals a chance and one has to ask (like God's extinction on His Creation to give Noah's genes a chance to populate the earth) why not do it right in the first place?
This isn't about saying we could do a better job, but that the evidence indicates that we were not created or grown in some sort of designed environment, but life, animals and us came to be because the conditions turned out to be what they are.
This isn't disproof of a God, but is does mean that this best argument isn't as good evidence for a god as theist would like. And, since the rest of the arguments (First cause aside) are far less good, the case for a god isn't good enough to rationalize Faith that a god exists.
And then of course, which god? While we can admit the possibility of a god we can't disprove, no -one seems to agree on what this god (or gods) is/are like and what it wants from us. To claim that it is the same god, simply moves the argument along a bit (who is worshipping in the right mode?) or returns the agnosticism or deism that is in the atheist camp rather that the theist.
The supposed logical and coherent arguments about the god - imposed plan that gives meaning to theist life or the misconceived and circular arguments about the How and Why and the footling appeal to what science can't yet explain are in fact self - delusionary, rather than coherent or logical.
Add to that the fact that the Bible tends to come apart under scrutiny as the claims for the hand of god in biology or physics (which is why science had such an important place in the religion discussion - philosophy asks the questions but science provides the answers) and there really is no compelling case for a god and no case at all for the specific god of the Books(s)
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